|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted January 27, 2012 03:12 PM |
|
|
|
There is a difference between things you don't need and things you cannot use. Suggesting to give Necro moral points and making racials independent from Luck and Moral is just admitting that they are both sub-par - which is not that difficult to see for anyone else.
|
|
Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
|
|
posted January 30, 2012 07:56 AM |
|
|
No one (certainly not me) ever said that luck is the only thing imbalanced. I agree with all of your points on inferno being imbalanced. I would also say that Necro deserves some nerfs. I was just disagreeing on a small detail of how to fix luck, a stat we all agree is not as good as might.
@ Alci: like the 2% and 177% damage crits idea. I had meant something more like that originally, but said 3% for simplicities sake. We run into the small problem of luck not being well define past lvl 50, though there are many ways to fix that. One being having multiple teirs of crits, and once you get like 35% chance to crit it starts removing chance to crit and adding chance to double crit, such that 65% of attacks are always normal, but luck continues to make your crits better. And once you have changed all 35% chance into double crit, then it starts removing double crit chance and adding triple crit chance. If we raise Morale to more than 1% chance per level then it would also run into the problem of being undefined when you get high Morale. However you could have a similar solution, where chance to trigger caps at like 75% chance, and then you start getting double morales.
But the bottom line here is that even if we don't agree on how things should be fixed, we all agree they are not balanced and changing things so that they are less imbalanced is better, even if it isn't using the solution that you happen to like best.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
|
|
jhb
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 30, 2012 10:09 PM |
|
|
nice thread guys!
I agree, one thing to give inferno more power should be improving the racial/destiny, making proliferation an active skill is a very interesting idea. Another thing to help could be giving more initiative to lilim in the first turn for a faster enthrall maybe...
About the necros, the first thing the devs should look are those insane resistances.
@JollyJoker Man, so after all our ping-pong in the discussion thread we have very similar opinions, I'm glad to know that. 
@hobo2 nice math man, I like precise mathematical approaches too, but Idk if Ubihole got some good ppl in this area. I hope so, cos these kind of games are all about numbers.
Well, nice job ppl! we are doing the job for free to the devs hehehe
Let's see if they hear something.
|
|
seingeist
Promising
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 06:39 AM |
|
|
I've been playing with the Inferno lately and I like some of the ideas in here but dislike others.
The Dogs do not need a stat buff. They have the highest max damage of any core unit, middling defense and HP, and excellent abilities (unlimited retaliation and voracious). Indeed, stat-wise, as JJ maintains, the Inferno units stack up just fine to the other factions.
What they need is more reliable/effective gating and greater numbers.
I also like the idea of enhancing the creature/hero abilities in such a way that they can buff friendly luck or debuff enemy luck, assuming that gating remains solely luck-triggered (I think that luck and damage-caused triggers, like a mirror of Sanctuary, would be much better than luck alone, and in keeping with Inferno's general vibe).
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 07:49 AM |
|
|
I still think giving the No Enemy Retaliation would make sense (possibly instead of Unlimited Retaliations). They are supposed to be a high damage output but fragile units, that you can deploy to, ideally, make a hit-and-run and cripple one (or two) enemy stacks. They're not tough enough to be thrown into the enemy lines and just stand there, which is why Unlimited Retaliations is not really that suitable for them. Hit and runs without retaliations would be perfect, however.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 07:53 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I've been playing with the Inferno lately
Against what?
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 08:25 AM |
|
|
People, get real about the dogs, really.
The dogs are a major threat - ergo they are targetted. Also, there is no such things as hit and run, except for the Furies and the Glories. Once you commit a stack like the dogs into the front row, there isn't much you can do to keep them alive, considering your inability to guard against Magic damage.
In Heroes 6 a unit like the Dogs suffer from the fact that units do less damage in general, while Cores have a problem to do serious damage against Elites and Champs. That means, fast attackers are LESS of a threat in general, especially when they are fairly low in numbers. No retaliation would gain nothing at all - it's just that the unit is a victim in the game, the way it is set up.
So the main problem is, that the unit makes no sense because it has no guard against anything and the ratio of a whole stack of them between Hit Points and Damage is wrong for this game. That makes them a pretty easy and obvious target.
The dogs are like a big tank with a big short-range gun, but not much armour. NO stat cchange can change that, because they will either be monstrous - or dog food.
It's the unit characteristic, that is completely wrong, because this kind of unit doesn't make much sense in the game anymore.
A start would be something like "Survival instinct": Allows them to dodge 25% ranged damage (Might) and 50% ranged damage (Magic).
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 11:01 AM |
|
|
|
Survival instinct would be a cool idea.....either way, they need boosting in the defensive area, that, or keep them off the battlefield until final battle (multiplayer) to avoid losses....
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 11:07 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Also, there is no such things as hit and run, except for the Furies and the Glories.
Why not? A unit with high speed and initiative and No Retaliation would still be able to perform hit and runs, wouldn't they?
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 11:30 AM |
|
|
hit and run =/= strike and return ftr.
____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!
|
|
hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 11:39 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Also, there is no such things as hit and run, except for the Furies and the Glories.
Why not? A unit with high speed and initiative and No Retaliation would still be able to perform hit and runs, wouldn't they?
No they would not. The board isn't very big. Let's say you had infinity initiative and a movement of say 10. Much more than anything in the whole game has or even could have. Now, what do we do?
Option 1: We attack something at the beginning of the battle on initiative count infinity! OK, now we are next to the enemy and they can attack us in turn.
Option 2: We hit Wait, then when the enemy moves into the middle of the board, we attack them! Now it's round two and we have two options: we either attack a second time, and then get attacked by the remaining enemies as in Option 1, or we run away to our side of the board - in which case the enemy comes in and attacks us anyway because they are in the middle of the board. But wait! What if they are really slow, like a Speed 4 unit? Then we actually could get out of the way for turn two, and then... that's it. We can't delay to avoid the enemy on turn 3
there is no such thing as hit and run because there is absolutely nowhere for you to run to in Heroes Six. Speed 4 units can be attacked and then retreated from for a full turn, but every other unit you can't even do that. The best you can do is to delay and then attack and then attack again before they start attacking you - and having a high speed does not even help with that.
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 11:44 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Also, there is no such things as hit and run, except for the Furies and the Glories.
Why not? A unit with high speed and initiative and No Retaliation would still be able to perform hit and runs, wouldn't they?
Except that they had to start the Battle with WAIT, meaning everyone else eligible could target them in the meantime, AND there was no second turn except retreat.
Not very effective.
|
|
Habitus
Tavern Dweller
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 01:17 PM |
|
|
Quote:
YES it bloody well matters whether the luck bonus changes in size dependent upon the strength of the unit it is applying to. The fact that these bonuses scale and the rate of this scaling is completely central to any possible analysis of their effects. Attack scales with Attack. The more of it you have, the better it is. Destiny scales too, but it doesn't scale with Destiny, it also scales with Attack. The more Attack you have, the better Destiny is. And get this: Destiny scales with Attack faster than more Attack does.
If you don't take into account those facts when you are suggesting a mathematical analysis, your mathematical analysis is wrong. Period.
At Attack 0, +1 Attack is worth +2.5% base damage and +1 Destiny is worth +0.5% base damage. At Attack 100, +1 Attack is worth +7% damage and +1 Destiny is worth +2.8% damage. In the time an Attack bonus became 2.8 times as valuable, Destiny became 5.6 times as valuable. Luck scales twice as fast with Attack as Attack does. If your analysis does not take that reality into account, it is wrong. Because next to the fact that Destiny is much much smaller than Attack at all levels on a point for point basis, that is the most important fact about the Attack/Luck question. If your analysis disregards it, your analysis is useless.
What hero would you like better?
The only thing I'll say about this is it should look at your total damage rather than base damage. This actually makes Destiny even worse since Attack also scales with Destiny, while each point of Destiny actually adds less than 0.5% damage (since part of your average total damage is already crits).
ie Your attack does one damage, 0 to 1 Destiny = 1.005 average damage, a 0.5% increase. 1 to 2 Destiny = 1.01 average damage, a 0.47619% increase over the previous point's average damage.
____________
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 01:37 PM |
|
|
|
No retaliation will double the dogs survivability not due to an eventual hit-and-run but due to the lack of damage from retaliations. Currently most - if not all - Core non-shooters can kill the Hell Hounds/Cerberi just by retaliating to their attacks. Unlimited Retaliation is a completely useless skill for such a fragile creature and I'd gladly replace it with No Retaliation.
|
|
hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 02:46 PM |
|
|
Quote:
No retaliation will double the dogs survivability not due to an eventual hit-and-run but due to the lack of damage from retaliations. Currently most - if not all - Core non-shooters can kill the Hell Hounds/Cerberi just by retaliating to their attacks. Unlimited Retaliation is a completely useless skill for such a fragile creature and I'd gladly replace it with No Retaliation.
Currently, Unlimited Retaliation is the only thing that makes them sort of useful under any circumstances. They have the largest threat to toughness ratio in the game, so they are always number 1 for enemy attacks. That means that if you put them in harm's way, they will be attacked two or three times. Armed with Life Drain, you can actually hold even against an inferior force by bringing puppies back with life drain on the counterattacks.
If they had No Retaliation instead, they would be essentially useless. Even that single use they currently enjoy (which granted does not work at all if your enemy is Necropolis) would be gone.
____________
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 03:00 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 15:01, 31 Jan 2012.
|
|
I often wonder if you people even test your claims. An individual Hell Hound/Cerberus deals a lot of damage but a stack of Hell Hounds/Cerberi does not because the weekly growth of the puppies is terrible. So their "threat factor" is overestimated - a stack of Maulers/Crushers for example, which is another heavy damage-dealer, is a creature which is properly designed to do what it's supposed to do so you might as well look at its template. I don't know how the dogs behave in the campaign, haven't played the Inferno bit yet, but under normal circumstances they're fodder for pretty much everything and can't deal as much damage as they should. Unlimited Retaliation doesn't help at all in big battles because the opponent cripples the stack before the ability can be exploited. In comparison, No retaliation + Life Drain will actually resurrect dead dogs and will not bring them back just to be slaughtered again (+a few more) by the enemy retaliation.
|
|
sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 03:25 PM |
|
|
So the conclusion is giving destiny (and morale) a boast? Seems like the safest way to boost inferno without upsetting balance.
Not sure how to change inferno units. Always imagined demons as individually more skilled than their Ashan counterpart by retained memory through reincarnations. Lack of synergy is also a must.
Dogs are tricky to balance. Two suggestions:
1) Transfer a stronger version of "pain mirror" ability from succubus to dogs and call it "burning blood" or something. Melee pounding still wipes them out quickly but make the cost severe.
2) A "feral instinct" ability that gives them 9 movement on their first turn. Ranged units can take them out but only after they get their first bite. With bad positioning they might even stand next to one; covering ranged units is not exactly easy or even optimal in Heroes6 when you really think about it.
|
|
hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 05:56 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I often wonder if you people even test your claims. An individual Hell Hound/Cerberus deals a lot of damage but a stack of Hell Hounds/Cerberi does not because the weekly growth of the puppies is terrible. So their "threat factor" is overestimated - a stack of Maulers/Crushers for example, which is another heavy damage-dealer, is a creature which is properly designed to do what it's supposed to do so you might as well look at its template. I don't know how the dogs behave in the campaign, haven't played the Inferno bit yet, but under normal circumstances they're fodder for pretty much everything and can't deal as much damage as they should. Unlimited Retaliation doesn't help at all in big battles because the opponent cripples the stack before the ability can be exploited. In comparison, No retaliation + Life Drain will actually resurrect dead dogs and will not bring them back just to be slaughtered again (+a few more) by the enemy retaliation.
Having played the Inferno campaign, you're wrong. First of all, the campaign gives you a bunch of extra puppies to play with, so their low growth rate isn't as big of a problem as you'd think. Secondly, the ratio of hound damage to hound hit points is pretty large. What that means is that if the hounds can attack after each incoming attack, they can lifedrain themselves up to full continuously. So they don't always have to declare attacks at all - they can just sit back and watch the computer feed itself one unit at a time into the wood chipper.
Here's the option:
No Retaliation: You declare an attack with the hounds, then your hounds are attacked, then they get their retaliation, then they get attacked by every other enemy stack and get no retaliations.
Unlimited Retaliation: You don't declare an attack at all. You just walk over and stand next to the enemy archers or something. Then an enemy unit attacks, then your hounds retaliate, then the next stack attacks, then your hounds retaltiate, and you keep repeating that for every enemy stack.
So the unlimited retaliation breaks even in terms of total number of attacks (and thus total amount of resurrection) if the enemy has 2 stacks. The enemy has 3 or more stacks all the time. And more importantly: having a life drain attack go off after every time you get attacked is significantly more valuable than having it go off any other time.
Sorry, it's just mathematical reality that unlimited retaliation is just much much larger and more useful for Hell Hounds than no-retaliation would be. That's just the way Heroes VI works.
I acknowledge that they aren't very good, but they are still the best thing the faction has. Maniacs are fairly terrible considering that they take tremendous losses actually doing anything (they are a slow-grind unit in a faction with no particular way to take advantage of a long battle), and every single unit in their elite tier is garbage. Hell Hounds at least have one useful thing they can do.
And that one useful thing they can do doesn't work against other players, because they aren't stupid enough to feed their units one at a time into a Life Draining Hell Hound stack and instead grind them down with ranged attacks and spells. But against computer opponents, Hell Hounds do work. And if you took their unlimited retaliation away they wouldn't.
____________
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 08:10 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 20:35, 31 Jan 2012.
|
Except that what I'm talking about is the performance of the dogs outside the campaign where it really matters. Nobody cares how strong or weak is some creature on a custom SP map that can be designed to compensate for its weaknesses or strengths. The AI is no measurement of the creature's performance either. If they are useless against a human opponent, they are useless altogether, simple as that.
Edit: By the way, let me make it simple for you:
Quote:
Unlimited Retaliation: You don't declare an attack at all. You just walk over and stand next to the enemy archers or something. Then an enemy unit attacks, then your hounds retaliate, then the next stack attacks, then your hounds retaltiate, and you keep repeating that for every enemy stack.
And here's how the real situation looks like - you either cast Rush on the Cerberi so you can get them to the enemy lines in one turn or wait with them. If you cast Rush and move them without attacking, the opponent will choose one of his stacks with heavier hands and will kill at least half of the dogs with a single attack. The next enemy stack which targets them will see the dog stack destroyed or with 80-90% losses; OR, you can cast Rush and attack, in which case you have to pray for a lucky strike which just might kill enough creatures from the targeted enemy stack to prevent devastating retaliation. When the attacked stack retaliates - presumably it's composed of melee combatants - it kills no less than 30-40% of the dogs. Then we go back to the previous scenario; OR you can wait and do nothing until the end of the round - then the opponent's heaviest shooter stack/some strike-and-return stack/some high mobility stack targets the dogs and kills at least half of them. Look above. And also note that all these things are possible only if the opponent doesn't have the means to attack the dogs before they act in the first place.
I hope I don't have to explain how No Retaliation will change these scenarios.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted January 31, 2012 08:24 PM |
|
|
I think both of us has a valid point. There is no doubt that if dogs are prone to being prime target, unlimited retaliations will help greatly preserve them because it will make it less desirable for enemy to target them.
On the other hand, it is also true that if you face up against an enemy where hit-and-run is possible (someone who turtles, for instance (cue Necropolis?)) No Retaliation will be a great help to directly minimize the damage you receive. However, giving them No Retaliation will also make them a magnet for enemy attacks, since every attack from a No Retaliation stack is a "free" attack.
So, I guess it depends on what role you want the dogs to play. If you give them No Retaliation, it means they will have to stay back and possibly be guarded behind something else (here the Taunt ability of Ravager could come in handy, as placing these in front of dogs would make it impossible for enemies to bypass them to get to dogs, but dogs can still go out around them and then back in cover). Giving them No Retaliation means you can't charge this stack into enemy lines - it will be instant main target. This role will also mean that sometimes dogs simply sit back without doing anything if there is no viable target without exposing themselves.
On the other hand, giving them Unlimited Retaliations means you can charge them into enemy ranks. Problem here is survivability - if they die or get decimated from one attack, it doesn't matter how many Retaliations they have, they won't get to do any. This is the problem as I see it with Inferno, dogs are not fit to play this role, that would be the tanky Jugganaut who charged into enemy ranks.
So yeah, I think UbiHole pretty much messed up the roles of the different creatures. They may have done this on purpose, but it certainly doesn't help Inferno. If one want to stick with the "messed up" approach, keep dogs as they are, but increase growth. Expect losses, do your best to bring them back.
If one wants a more "functional" Inferno, the line-up would look more like this:
- Maniac: Taunt - to guard Hounds and Succubi. Decent survivability, low damage.
- Hounds: No Retaliation - to hide back and perform hit and run. Low survivability, high mobility and damage.
- Juggernaut: Unlimited Retaliations, unstoppable - to charge into enemy ranks and soak damage. High mobility and durability, low damage.
- Tormentor: Pretty much as is. High damage, moderate mobility and survivability. Moving in for second kills.
____________
What will happen now?
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
