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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 09:52 AM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 23 Jan 2012. |
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The Balance between factions - in-depth analysis
I suggested something like that, and I got it finished, it's quite longish, but it comes with a summary. It's not about doggies, by the way. 
A) Leadership, Destiny and the other primary stats compared; a view on racial skills
Let's assume that Attack an Defense are roughly equal in effect. If we want to compare them with Leadership and Destiny, it seems right to compare them with Attack - Destiny is giving a 50% damage bonus. Leadership gives half a turn, resulting in some possible things, but without going too deeply into it, Leadership seems to give something special in addition to a normally granted 50% damage bonus, so it looks a bit better than Destiny.
1 point of Might and Magic Attack each cover the whole army (whether creatures have a Might or Magic attack), and the Attack table says, that 50% damage bonus is reached at levels 18 and then 32 again. Since you can get attack points from a number of sources and heroes have a distinct inclination to either might or magic, I'm going to set the value for 50% damage plus to 16 2/3, and since we need both might and magic points to cover the whole of the army, it's 33 1/3 points. To get this value on Destiny and Leadership you'll need 100 points - so at this point we can safely say that 1 point in attack or defense is worth THREE in Luck and Leadership.
However, we have already seen that Leadership is better than Destiny. Additionally, Morale is not working on RETALIATION - while Hero Attack does. If we simply assume that the additional effect for Leadership is enough compensation for the fact that it does work only on offense, and even if we would assume that a chance to act a second time is even better than that, I would still say that 1 point of attack should be worth 2 (TWO) in Leadership.
But what about Destiny?
Before I go on, let's look at factions. The point distribution for factions is 11/5 (Haven), 4/10 (Inferno), 0/7 for (Necropolis), 7/7 (Sanctuary) and 8/6 (Stronghold). If we change the value of destiny points to 1/3 and Leadership to 1/2, we get a worth of 289 points for Haven, 290 for Inferno, 314 for Necropolis, 293 for Sanctuary and 294 for Stronghold. We can safely say, that Necropolis has a clear advantage over the others, currently.
Now let's take a look at the racials. We can safely say, that - without actually comparing the effects of the racials - they are pretty powerful for everyone and additionally limited to one use per round at most. However, since it's not only just using it, but a question of how full the gauge is for strength of effect, gauges should fill with a somewhat comparable speed. Also, the things filling the gauge should be somewhat equally useful.
This is what fills Racial Gauge:
Haven: FRIENDLY CREATURES ONLY are dealt DAMAGE OR get good morale
Inferno: ANY CREATURE triggers Luck (or Bad Luck)
Necropolis: ANY Creature suffering DAMAGE (friendly creatures are generating more points)
Sanctuary: FRIENDLY CREATURE attacks an enemy that hasn't been attacked that round
Stronghold: ANY Creature ATTACK (friendly creatures are generating more points)
The difference between DAMAGE and ATTACK is, that DAMAGE includes all retaliations, while ATTACK doesn't.
So let's have a look on the mechanisms.
With Haven, good MORALE is filling the Gauge up by a significant margin, while suffered damage does as well in relation to actual army strength. So there is a probability-based part that depends only on one's own army and morale, and there is a more regular part that adds up in smaller increments, especially when the enemy retaliates.
With Inferno you profit from luck and bad luck effects of every stack. Bad Luck is existing in theory only, though. The only available skill for Inferno to negatively influence enemy luck is TERROR (while Haven and Necro have class skills Anathema and Face of death). Terror, is however, not suited to further enemy bad luck, since it's no mass spell and the unit is losing a turn anyway, so the effect for the gauge would be marginal. So Bad Luck is a chimera for Inferno.
While it seems fine that good luck of enemy units trigger the gauge, it's also something you do not want to see. And while it is true that suffering damage as a gauge filler is not good either, we'll see later that Inferno is not well prepared to deal withe the additional damage that comes with enemy luck, as opposed to Haven and Necro, since there is neither a permanent, connected life-GIVING function related to the racial (as with Necro) nor does Inferno is a town blessed with other Healing options.
With Necro, the connection is immediate: SUFFER damage -> gain ability to heal damage. If the Gauge doesn't trigger - fine, no damage suffered, so who needs the racial? If damage is suffered - fine, Hero can heal it.
Sanctuary depends completely on the enemy formation. However, when it's really only against few stacks, things are getting easier, the longer the game lasts, that is, the better the hero and the army is. In battle in which it counts, Sanctaury has complete control and needs to plan their attacks well, balancing retaliations with gauge-fillers. Also, the effect is quite pronounced and immediate. Still, if there was adjustment needed at all, it was only in the values, not in the basic mechanics.
Lastly Stronghold is rewarded by their own attacks, less by enemy attacks. This seems a good thing in every regard - you don't need the enemy, but if he attacks, you get at least racial points. The effect is quite pronounced as well. I would rate this from the general outlook the same way as Sanctuary - if adjustment was needed, it was only in numbers, not in general mechanics.
What does it all mean?
We will take a look at the Necropolis racial in another chapter - for now let's just say, that they get life back for each life spent anywhere on the battlefield, and I would say, while this may look logical, it's also an invitation to desaster because it means, that the racial fills stronger the stronger the enemy is, but that the racial has all the more effect the weaker the enemy gets: In the beginning, when the enemy is still strong, the gauge fills rapidly, allowing maximum raisings. If the enemy loses forces gradually, the gauge fills slower, but has more effect, since the percentage of troops raised compared to the percentage that are yet on the battlefield increases.
Imagine it: Let's say, in the first round the enemy kills 1/10 of your initial army strength and you do the same to him. This will allow you to Raise a certain percentage OF YOUR INITIAL army strength. ln a later round the enemy does only half of that damage, since the army shrunk. Say it's the same with you, so you need now TWO rounds - but then you raise the same percentage of your INITIAL army - which is compared with your, and especially OPPONENT woth double as much. Or in other words, just with numbers. If your and opponent's army consists of 100 creatures each, and you lose 10 and can raise 2 - if you are both down to 50 creatures, those 2 raised are worth much more now.
The real deal here is Inferno. DESTINY points are WAY too weak, and the mechanics of Inferno racial is bad. This part would need a COMPLETE rework:
1) If a hero gains a primary point in LEADERSHIP, this should result in gaining TWO Leadership points (this would actually alter the starting values of heroes)
2) If a Hero gains a primary point in DESTINY, this should result in gaining at least TWO Destiny points (this would alter the starting values of Heroes)
3) Since creatures start with Luck and Morale values, those and maybe the strength values of creatures may need adjustment.
4) Inferno misses ways to actually INFLUENCE Luck. With a view on their racial their interest would be a) more own luck triggers, and b) more opposing BAD LUCK triggers. Luck is a fickle thing, so I'd imagine something like a "fluctuation" of Luck, that comes with pressing the racial Inferno gauge, something like a dice roll altering all Luck values of ALL troops on the BF randomly, so that the Difference in Destiny of the Heroes multiplied with the Level of the Racial would define the SWING (the maximum possible adjustment, while the value all in all would not be touched.
Example: (Consider triple destiny point value for Heroes). Let's say the Inferno Hero has Destiny 18, and the opponent 12, so the difference would be 6. With a gauge half filled, level 2 would make the swing 12. This would mean, for the next round the Luck of all stacks on the battlefield would change by a value between +12 and -12 in such a way, that the Luck value of the full army would be left unchanged. So this would result in bigger luck differences within a given army, with possible negatives.
Sounds a bit complicated, and maybe a bit wild, but with the concept of Bad Luck actually being purely theoretical and Destiny (and Leadership) points grossly imbalanced, it's Inferno that suffers a lot from this. Not only are their heroes effectively the weakest, I'm afraid the creatures are overrated as well, since the Inferno creatures have high Luck (and lower Leadership) values, and I'm afraid that for the same reason Necro creatures are grossly underrated (they have moral 0), when it comes to strength values.
Additionally their racial misses an immediate component, depends on a weak stat and - considering that opponent's "help" to fill the gauge is clearly unwished for - the faction misses an instrument to influence opposing luck in a more wished-for direction (the Luck range must be bigger and more unstable)..
EDIT: There seem to be a simpler option than change the mechanics with Swing of Luck. So the alternative point 5 would be
5*) Change the mechanics for Racial gain to make it more dependable like that of Haven. One possibility was this:
a) Only friendly effects are counted.
b) If Luck triggers, the gauge advances a certain number of points.
c) If Luck does NOT trigger, the gauge advances for a number of points based on "Wasted Luck", that is, the Luck value that didn't trigger.
So if Luck triggers, the Gauge would gain, say, 50 points. If Luck did NOT trigger, it would gain, say 19 points, if unit Luck was 19, and 25 points, if unit Luck was 25.
B) Racial Immunities and Creature Abilities
The 5 factions have the following resistances and vulnerabilities:
Haven; none; Glories have a 25% vulnerability against Dark Magic, but with their Ghost form they have a 50% resistance against everything when they wait or defend.
Inferno: 20% vulnerability against Light; 20% Resistance against Fire
Necro: 20% Vulnerability against Light; 20% resistance against Water; no Moral (but currently more powerful stats); a ton of immunities, including against Life Drain and Poison
Sanctuary: 25% vulnerability against Air, 50% resistance against water;
Stronghold: 10% vulnerability against Light; 10% resistance against Fire.
That is one thing. The other thing is - how effective are the MAGIC DAMAGE units against a certain faction, and how are creature abilities affected.
You'll get a picture of the situation when two factions collide by cross-referenciong both and compare
1) Haven
a) against Inferno: Sisters/Vestals and Glories do 20% more damage. Sisters/Vestals may use their Heal as a ranged attack:
b) against Necro: Sisters/Vestals and Glories do 20% more damage. Sisters/Vestals may use their Heal as a ranged attack; Glories's Searing Light not working
c) against Sanctuary: all abilities working, nothing special
d) against Stronghold: all unit abilities work; Sisters/Vestals and Glories do 10% more damage. Sisters/Vestals may use their Heal as a ranged attack
All available Healing spells can be used against all opponents. All Magic available that does increased damage against others (Air, Light)
2) Inferno
a) against Haven: all unit abilities work; do Glories dispell Blade of Hatred effect?
b) against Necro: Lilims Enthrall doesn't work; Blade of Hatred doesn't work. Manic Laughter, Rapture in Agony and Taunting presence SHOULD NOT work against undead (as they are mind affects), but I suppose they do work (wrongly); Light Magic not available for increased damage; Life Drain not available as healing spell
c) against Sanctuary: all unit abilities work;
d) 10% reduced effect of Succ/Lilims and Breeders; Panther Warriors immune against Blade of Hatred. Light Magic not available for increased damage
3) Necropolis
a) Against Haven: everything works; additional bonus for Ghosts, Liches and Namtarus against Glories
b) Against Inferno: Spectre's Death Seal useless; everything else works. Light Magic not available
c) Against Sanctuary; Webbing Spears useless against Kiriins; everything else works;
d) Against Stronghold: everything works; Light Magic not available
All healing works against everyone.
4) Sanctuary:
a) Haven: everything works
b) Inferno; eeverything works;
c) Necro: Reduced effects of Ice Shards and Hailstorm Aura. Reduced dange of Spring Spirits and Ice Maidens; Challenge sbhouldn't work
d) Stronghold: everything works
All Healing spell works. Has access to Light and Air, but can't make use of the Fire vulnerability that comes with Chilled and Frozen effects
5) Stronghold
a) Haven; everything works
b) Inferno: Burning Rage reduced efficiency
c) Necro:; everything works; Life Drain not available
d) Sanctuary; Cripling Traps and Vicious strike useles against Kirins
Can use every Healing spell and every damage vulnerability except Life Drain against Necro
Everyone can make their own picture, but it looks like Inferno against Necropolis is badly balanced.
In my opinion a couple of things are not good, and the overwhelming majority revolves around Necropolis. I do not understand the resistancies and vulnerabilities of Necropolis. I would think that Necropolis should have a massive vulnerability against Fire. Vulnerabilities against Light and Water; resistancies against Dark and Earth.
I also don't see the Light vulnerability for Demons (and Orcs), sorry.
It looks strange, that Sanctuary cannot make use of their Water effects.
Generally, I'M extremely sceptical about resistancies and vulnerabilities. Necropolis is WAY above everyone else - additionally ALL Life Drain abilities work against everyone, while the important spell does not work against them, which is especially bad for Inferno, since Life Drain is the best Healing spell because it depends on stack size.
C) Elite units and unit production
I think, that the Elite units are the Key element of the army. Sure, the Cores are plentiful and have a couple of interesting abilities, but considering the growth mechanics and envisioning the armies, Elite units, once produced, reach high numbers fast and supply lots of army strength, and that "army strength" is determining a lot of things, for some skills, not the least of which are the racials of Inferno and Necropolis. Also, building strategies may vary and are not obvious, other than for Cores.
I made an Excel table for Elites, only for Health (modified for defense) and damage, Necro is on the throne here, with Stronghold being competetive and Sanctuary being something like the middle ground. Sure, speed, initiative and special abilities are factors - but if you consider racials, the Health/Damage values are vital for Necro.
What is quite important, is the amount of base number production and added upgrade production. There are only 4 different cases:
3+1
3+2
4+2
4+3
4+3 are only Vampires.
It should be rather obvious, that all 3+1 d wellings are not worth building the upgrade - or would be worth the upgrade only if it was bossting the basic unit EXTREMELY. Otherwise, the FF buildings, basic Champion (and of course Basic Elite dwellings) are the better builds.
Now, let's just take a look on Basic Elite Minimum/Maximum values and UPGRADED minimum/maximum values (min/max=without/with all FFs)
Haven: 9/18 14/23
Inferno: 9/18 13/22
Necro:11/20 18/27
Sanctuary:10/19 15/24
Stronghold 10/19 15/24
Obviously, the best Inferno value in relation to the others is the maximum basic value, while the minimum upgraded one is the worst.
The conclusion is, that INFERNO CANNOT UPGRADE THEIR Elites (except when they get more than one town, just for the advantages, not for numbers).
Generally, this whole thing is completely out of balance. I can safely say, that adding only +1 growth for an Elite upgrade dwelling is generalyl wrong, except for units that would gain MASSIVELY. There is no such unit, although there are some, that have better upgrades than others. Inferno has NONE of those, though.
Thus, Inferno has basically no Elite building strategy that would see them gaining something - their best strategy is gowing for Champs, FFs and basic Elites, which is a bit one.-dimensional, since you can't win with Champions alone.
Necropolis on the other hand, has a win-win situation: it doesn't matter what they build - EVERYTHING will be great, EXCEPT an early Champion dwelling.
D) Army Synergy
I think everyone knows, what this is, so let's just check the factions:
Haven: Sisters and Praetorians, Glories and Angels have all abilities that support the whole of the army.
Necro: Skeletons, Liches, Ghosts and Namtarus
Sanctuary: The epitome of army synergy
Stronghold: Dreamwalkers and Goblins, Cyblopses limited only. This IS in keeping with "army doctrine" , and Stronghold has an extreme damage potential to ake up for that.
Inferno: Limited for Lilims, and Demented and Ravagers (building them is disadvantageous, though.
In fact, all Inferno creatures are single fighters, led by Pit Lords, which can damage all, Dogs, the high movement allowance of Succubi, so that they can disengage, Lacerators (whose spike attack initially was planned to hurt friend and foe). While that is in keeping with faction character, units simply miss quality to make up for the missing synergy. Stronghold is way better here. Cores and Champs are generally ok, but Elites just don't cut it.
Elites would need something like 3-5-3-5 4-6 structure (and a speed boost). Better would be a 3-5, 4-6.4-6 structure (Ravagers being 3-5), with Lacerators/Tormentors could be adjusted a bit for a bit less HPs and a bit lower damage, As it is, the missing Elite options with the missing Synergy is too much.
For Necro, the fact that they have 3 shooters adds to the Synergy, since they can play defensively because of that, making speed at least rather irrelevant. The Necropolis is such a good faction because their strengths completely neutralize the weaknesses.
E) Summary
I can't understand how it was even possible to equal the Destiny and Leadership points with the Attack and Defense points which, apart from the obvious bonus on damage/resistance define the not that unimportant Might and Mana as well. Not only is a point of Destiny worth only one third of a point in Attack or defense, it also isn't triggered on retaliation, making everything connected with Destiny worse than everything else. This is true for Heroes as well as creatures (whose Destiny points are very probably overrated when determining creature strength).
The loser here is Inferno, the winner is Necropolis, because having no moral is, not only no loss (hero and creatures are compensated for it), but a gain, because Heroes and creatures are actually overcompensated.
Inferno Racial, while in theory strong, not only depends on a faulty mechanics to ghet points for it; the racial itself and the character of the army and hero are not supporting each other: since an Inferno army can get stronger via gating, they would be served way better with a DEFENSIVE orientation - keep forces, gate more and overwhelm the enemy with numbers. Also, effect of gating is not immediate and can be countered fairly easily, while the portals themselves are a physical obstacle, but don't seem to inhibit shooters or provide cover.
That same kind of inner contradiction can we find in army synergy. Inferno is an army of single fighters, and it doesn't come as a surprise that game mechanics and army characteristics favor a one-stack approach - which is in contrast to what the racial needs.
Another problem are the Elite creatures in combination with game mechanics where Necro is highly superior with only Stronghold coming close. Inferno produces the lowest number of creatures, but isn't compensated by creature strength.
Lastly faction vulnerabilities and resistancies work clearly in favor of Necropolis and against Inferno. Neecropolis has a lot of immunities, and while even Stronghold can make use of their one and only Light vulnerability, the Inferno is once again the faction that not only misses out on that, but is only robbed of some of their best creature skills.
While the balancing of Haven, Sanctuary and Stronghold may seem to be possible just by making small adjustments in reaction on general playing experiences (Stronghold being the damage faction, Haven the excellent ability faction and Sanctuary the defensive synergy faction), Necropolis on top and Inferno at the bottom of the lot need more than just a couple of adjustments. It would seem that both have been constructed on a couple of fundamentally flawed assumptions, and a balance will be possible only with a couple of fundamental changes.
Last, but not least: I don't have anything against a contradictory faction per se - this contradictory, broken outlook is somewhat in keeping with Inferno and H3 tradition of it -m but it must be FUN to play. And that it isn't. Inferno Elite creature play is the worst the game has to offer, and building an Inferno town is no fun either. The market sucks - it's expensive, and you cannot sell artifacts. You don't really want to build an Elite building because those creatures are so useless - there is no synergetic effect whatsoever, so building any kind of Elite structure will give you just a few creatures without any real use.
With Necropolis on the other hand you can't go wrong, no matter what you do. Whatever you build, everything is ok, and time works for you at that.
In all fairness it has to be said, that whoever is responsible for balancing did a terrible job here.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 23, 2012 10:40 AM |
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Very nice post.
Brings light in the large and chaotic mess in numbers.
And it is also frightening how Inferno is disadvantaged.
But as I stated in a different topic. IMHO the right way is not in making inferno stronger (after I read the OP I will change it to not only) but in decreasing the potential of the Overpowerd factions (necro and haven). this can be done by many ways, and giving them more magic vulnerabilities is a good start.
One thing I disagree with is this
Quote:
3) Luck (and Bad Luck) should trigger ALSO ON RETALIATION (Racial gauge point gain for Inferno may be adjusted accordingly).
Just because from my experience luck DOES TRIGER on retaliations and this triger does fill the inferno gauge
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 10:48 AM |
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If that's indeed the case, it just means that one of the points I lament is in fact installed - I just seem to never have noticed it.
But if that's so, all the better, because it means, that the arithmetics are simpler: One point in attack or defense are worth 3 Destiny points, actually, not 1. And while yu can argue whether moral is slightly better or not, moral is overrated just as well.
Consequentially, Necro heroes are stronger than the others, and their creatures are stronger as well, since Luck and Moral are actually overrated.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted January 23, 2012 11:16 AM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 23 Jan 2012. |
Edited by Lexxan at 12:40, 23 Jan 2012.
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So Inferno Fix Proposals
First off, that was an amazing read, JJ.
I agree that the balance between Necro and Inferno is really shaken. I don't think I need to point out anything more, since you pretty much said everything there is to say. There are only suggestions to solve said problems, and hoping Ubihole will listen.
(one note tho: Inferno's upgrade of the Breeder is pretty important, as it increases stack size by 25%, giving them a free Reinforcements II)
Necropolis' biggest problem is, as you laid out perfectly, their lavish amount of resistances. "Emotionless" it a very powerful trait on its own, and combined with "Undead" it provided a very good combination of resistances on its own. Necro misses out on Morale and beneficial mind spells/abilities (Burning Determination, Inner Fire, Heroism, Heroic Strike), but being immune to enemy ones is pretty powerfull, as a great deal of enemy creature abilities are mind-related (cue to Inferno).
That ALREADY makes it hard for Inferno to beat them outright, but Necro's partial immunity to water is another issue also gives them a minor advantage against Sanctuary. Necropolis' lavish amount of immunities is what makes them so dangers, and vulnerability to light only makes it hard for any faction other than Haven or Magic Stronghold to beat them. Oh, and they both get Life Drain and Regeneration, have a racial gauge which fills up extremely rapidly, have excellent faction synerge, plus immunity to life drain/mind spells makes them even more overpowered.
I'd agree to give Necropolis vulnerabilities, because this would at least give them a fighting chance against Inferno (Fire Vulnerability, obviously). But I don't think the problem necessarily is with Necro on this one. In addition to Necro being IMMUNE to Inferno's best strategies, Inferno has few means of exploiting their racial and recuperating their losses, not just against Inferno, but against most other factions as well.
Inferno needs at least TWO of the following:
1) A healer of sorts
2) A unit which can influence the Destiny of allied and enemy creatures on the battle field
3) Higher Destiny due to "Demonic Lineage"
4) A complete rehash of Destiny in order to accomodate Inferno's lavish needs.
5) An additional and/or alternative way to fill in their racial gauge
I'll just discuss these right here and there
1) A healer of sorts: When you look at Inferno's line-up, you see that Inferno has 1 and a half-shooters, 1 flyer and 4 Melee units, three of which are completely interchangeable with one another. Inferno lacks SEVERE flexibility, which is an issue as all other factions (except MAAAYBE stronghold) can successfully employ different strategies due to variable abilities their creatures possess. Further more, three of the other factions have built-in healers, and Stronghold has access to EVERY SINGLE healing spell. Inferno only has regeneration, which isn't that strong, and Life Drain which doesn't work against Necropolis. Healing actually harms them. They lack a fairly effcient way to conserve their losses, specifically against Necro.
I'd say to assign that role to the Breeders. Not only would it make sence from mythical PoV, the Breeders are fairly useless creatures with really weak attack and their mana drain is barely enough to make them really usefull. By giving them an ability to "breed new reinforcements" on the battlefield, it would make a desire stack much more difficult to destroy.
An alternative could be to make Life Drain less effective against them or give them some sort of resistance against Dark magic.
2) A unit which can influence the Destiny of allied and enemy creatures on the battle field:
This idea behind this one is fairly simple. You were to alter one of the already existing abilities in order to give Inferno a possibility to alter friendly and enemy Destiny values. What I specifically had in mind for this was to use the Demented's special ability.
The Demented's Maniacal laughter, now increasing/decreasing attack, should/could easily be altered to affecting enemy Destiny. It could also be a mass ability, giving the enemy a huge penalty in Destiny (triggering bad luck) and giving the Demons enough Destiny to fill up their racial gauge.
Like, Demented attack any enemy unit, drain that unit of 4 Destiny, AND every unit on the battlefield or within a specified distance to the stack of Demented (say 5x5 radius), gets a bonus or penalty in Destiny of half for the remainder of the battle, depending on their allegiance. This increases by two Destiny for each of the Demented's first four attacks.
So it could work out like this:
Demented's first attack:
- Target gets a -4 Penalty in Destiny.
- Demented's Destiny increases by 4.
-Enemies within a 5*5 Radius get a permanent -2 Destiny penality (not including the targeted creature)
- Allies within the same radius get a permanent + 2 Destiny bonus.
Demented's second attack:
- Target gets a -6 Penalty in Destiny.
- Demented's Destiny increases by 2. (stacks with previous attacks)
-Enemies within a 5*5 Radius get a permanent -3 Destiny penality (not including the targeted creature)
- Allies within the same radius get a permanent + 3 Destiny bonus.
Demented's third attack:
- Target gets a -8 Penalty in Destiny.
- Demented's Destiny increases by 2. (stacks with previous attacks)
-Enemies within a 5*5 Radius get a permanent -4 Destiny penality (not including the targeted creature)
- Allies within the same radius get a permanent + 4 Destiny bonus.
Demented's fourth attack:
- Target gets a -10 Penalty in Destiny.
- Demented's Destiny increases by 2. (stacks with previous attacks)
-Enemies within a 5*5 Radius get a permanent -5 Destiny penality (not including the targeted creature)
- Allies within the same radius get a permanent + 5 Destiny bonus.
After Four attacks, the effect isn't repeated. The effect, like with the current special of the Demented, works on the first four times the Demented does damage to ANY creature. Obviously, this also includes retaliations. All effects STACK with each other. (Demented follow special rules, they can get up to +10 Destiny)
I think that way, Inferno would be able to have some sort of controll over the factor of Destiny/Luck, and giving the Demented (an otherwise blah unit) a much more important role.
An alternative would be to give one of the other creatures (I'm thinking Succubi, Breeders or Pit Lord's here) the ability to function as a "mascot" or a respresentative to Urgash increasing the Destiny of nearby units, and decreasing the Destiny of enemy units.
3) Higher Destiny due to "Demonic Lineage"
4) A complete rehash of Destiny in order to accomodate Inferno's lavish needs.
I'm taking these two at once since they are roughly the same. Since Luck/Destiny is seen as a "natural" thing due to their Chaotic Lineage, Destiny bonuses could simply be added to the "Demonic" trait Inferno units possess.
They could gain a +10 Destiny bonus that cannot be decreased.
They could, similar to my previous paragraph, drain 1 point of Destiny from enemy units with each attack/retaliation.
They could have higher chances of rolling a critical hit than other races could with the same amount of Destiny. (eg: 1.2% chance per destiny point instead of 1%)
Obviously, an alternative could be to simply alter the rules for Luck and Destiny either for the Demons only or during the game in general.
For instance, Luck could be rolled while defending (at a penalty, obviously. 66%?), reducing enemy damage by 25% and filling up Inferno's racial gauge (a separate roll is made for retaliations). If Attacker and Defender both roll Good Luck, both effects are negated. I think that could be a very good way to trigger more (bad) luck rolls and making Inferno's racial more usefull, AND it would be a good ways to defend against Necro.
5) An additional and/or alternative way to fill in their racial gauge
I think this one should be obvious. Haven's gauge is filled by Morale Rolls AND by friendly losses, so why would Inferno's gauge only be filled by Lock Rolls? Change it to Luck Rolls + Enemy losses, and I think it's a lot easier to fill it up. (not to mention it works well with Inferno's inherent strategy of throwing themselves within enemy ranks and wreaking havoc).
I think two of those five should do the trick. (Obviously 2 + 3/4 would be overpowered, but any other combination would work quite well).
I don't think fixing balance should be that big of a problem. Necro needs a minor nerf in their resistances, and Inferno needs a fairly substantial boost in Faction Synergy, and the use of Destiny/Luck in general. Other than that is should work, and the producers should work on making the game more interesting in general.
In any case, an amazing thread, JJ, and I hope the developers take this thread into account for their next patch.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 23, 2012 11:25 AM |
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That was an interesting read indead. While one can always contest the exact way to put numbers on such things in order to evaluate balance, the picture that emerges is none-the-less very clear and one-sided in favor of Necropolis and disfavor of Inferno. That this clearly matches the experience that people report from in-game only supports this picture and lends credibility to the changes you suppose.
I have a question: Picking Destiny I/II/III skills in game, exactly how much bonus will they provide?
Also, I must say that giving the (Spider form of) Fate Weavers ranged attack to me is an incredibly lame decision. Not only does it make absolutely no sense to me why a Spiderwoman would shoot a laser beam out her brest, it also seems an incredibly poor choice balancewise.
EDIT >
A few more comments:
1) Yes, Breaders should have ability to boost friendly units. I think actually it would make it interesting to give them an activated ability working like Reinforcements that they could apply on other stacks - that would make it not "just another healing unit" but would still give Inferno a welcome help in preserving units.
2) Yes, Inferno gage filling on damaging enemy units (only a small bit, but still) would seem reasonable. Major contribution should still be Destiny.
3) I loved the idea of having the "Chaos" element of Inferno play in on how Destiny is applied across battlefield. The Chaotic redistribution of Destiny would make a very nice racial ability for Inferno. However, if point 2) above was implemented, this should not be something that comes automatically but something you had to select as a skill.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 11:26 AM |
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Yes, Breeders are the only Elite unit that you would consider to grade up (because of the 3+2 and the 20%, making it a 3+3, actually), but on the other hand the Breeders are one of those few pitiful units with half range and melee penalty...
How much better would that Proliferation ability on an actual melee unit?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 11:30 AM |
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Quote:
I have a question: Picking Destiny I/II/III skills in game, exactly how much bonus will they provide?
2, 2 and 3. respectively.
Destiny's chosen and Charismatic Leader are extremely useless and undervalued, as undervalued as the points the Heroes get when levelling.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 23, 2012 11:35 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I have a question: Picking Destiny I/II/III skills in game, exactly how much bonus will they provide?
2, 2 and 3. respectively.
Destiny's chosen and Charismatic Leader are extremely useless and undervalued, as undervalued as the points the Heroes get when levelling.
That's just ... Should one  or  ?
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted January 23, 2012 11:35 AM |
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Edited by Lexxan at 11:36, 23 Jan 2012.
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Quote:
Also, I must say that giving the (Spider form of) Fate Weavers ranged attack to me is an incredibly lame decision. Not only does it make absolutely no sense to me why a Spiderwoman would shoot a laser beam out her brest, it also seems an incredibly poor choice balancewise.
Uhm, Laserbeams are pretty common in Heroes games, and you well know (scroll down a bit).
Mother Breeders definitely suck either way around. Hence why a healing or a Destiny-ability could be an excellent way to give them a lot more uses... and it would make them much more interesting to destroy early so with Profileration it would make them more durable. (Given their terrible HPs, it is definitely not useless)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 23, 2012 11:42 AM |
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Quote:
How much better would that Proliferation ability on an actual melee unit?
So why not make it work as an activated ability, in essence casting Reinforcements on a friendly Core or Elite (it will be a bit too much with the Pit Lords). It will become 10 more interesting to use and just as many times more useful AND its precious lore explanation will remain intact.
Will comment the rest of your points later. Good post, but the Hell Hounds/Cerberi still suck. 
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 11:47 AM |
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I can't understand how it was even possible to equal the Destiny and Leadership points with the Attack and Defense points which, apart from the obvious bonus on damage/resistance define the not that unimportant Might and Mana as well. Not only is a point of Destiny worth only one third of a point in Attack or defense, it also isn't triggered on retaliation, making everything connected with Destiny worse than everything else.
Why, I have seen how Luck triggered on retaliation.. many times.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted January 23, 2012 11:49 AM |
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What he's saying is that the Inferno racial gauge doesn't fill up when Luck triggers on retaliations.
Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 23, 2012 11:50 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
How much better would that Proliferation ability on an actual melee unit?
So why not make it work as an activated ability, in essence casting Reinforcements on a friendly Core or Elite (it will be a bit too much with the Pit Lords). It will become 10 more interesting to use and just as many times more useful AND its precious lore explanation will remain intact.
Will comment the rest of your points later. Good post, but the Hell Hounds/Cerberi still suck.
I agree, Proliferation should be limited on friendly core/elite creatures, but that is also perfectly doable. And yes, Cerberi still need No Retaliation.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 12:05 PM |
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Well, believe it or not, but I've been suggesting a Lich-like proliferation abiliy for Breeder Moms for a long time now, but with no avail. "Give Breeders Proliferation as a Passive and Moms as an active to be cast on others."
The impression is, that Inferno is supposed to be a faction that looks like Urgash turned the Wheel of Fortune when handing out abilities to his creatures, slapping them randomly onto them.
To tell the truth, I've ever seen Luck on retaliations, not to mention filling the Gauge, but this should be easy to ckeck.
With Might and Magic Power and Resistance working on both attack and retaliation, the 3:1 value of those points versus Destiny (and Leadership) points is based on the assumption that they work anyway. The 3:1 is also easy to see:
1 point of each Might and Magic Power covers he whole army, and 14-18 points, depending on where you are, add 50% damage. For Luck you need 100 points to add 50%, so it's 3 times as much.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 12:08 PM |
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Oh, and let me add something:
I'm actually not that interested on HOW they change the balance and what they will do exactly, I'm more interested in pointing out the flaws of the balance and mechanics they employ. I don't actually care how they do it, provided they do it.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 12:28 PM |
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Great posts guys.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 23, 2012 12:44 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I have a question: Picking Destiny I/II/III skills in game, exactly how much bonus will they provide?
2, 2 and 3. respectively.
Destiny's chosen and Charismatic Leader are extremely useless and undervalued, as undervalued as the points the Heroes get when levelling.
Firstly, nice post JJ.
I think Alci is not referring to stat points...
So it's 6%, 12% and 21% for probability of occurring.
But the bonus is the same for all Destiny skills, ie. 50% added to initial damage....
Right?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 23, 2012 12:55 PM |
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Oh ok, so getting a bonus of 2 Destiny points means +6 % trigger chance, or what? Now I'm confused, I thought in the new system, 1 point was 1 % trigger chance.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 01:12 PM |
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In the system, a point is a point. When a hero levels, he gains to "points" on any of the two Power and Resistance skills in Leadership or in Destiny.
1 point of Destiny is worth 1% probability for a unit to do 50% more damage, which means, 1 point of Destiny is worth 0.5% more damage.
Now compare that with a point of Might or Magic Power.
We can safely say, no matter which units have Might and which have magic attack, a hero gaining 1 point of Might and 1 point of Magic power covers the whole army and will gain some percentage of damage for the creatures.
The forula is complex, but in the Game Mechanics part of the Fan Manual there is a table that shows how many points of Might/Magic power you need to gain said 50% more damage. The table says, it's 18 for the first 50% and another 14 for the next 50, and since you can get attack and defense values with artifacts and map objects, it's fair to take a middle value here, for ease of reference not 16, but 16 2/3. Since we need both Might and Magic Power to cover the full army, we need double that amount, 33 attack points to get 50% damage plus fo the army - the same 50% we get via 100 points of Destiny.
Which means, 1 point of Destiny is worth only ONE THIRD of a point of Might/Magic Power/Resistance.
So getting a point of Destiny or Leadership, when your hero levels up is a disadvantage. A Necro hero of level 30 will only have SEVEN of those points (in Destiny) and 7 MORE in attack or defense. ALL other have 14, the Haven heroes even have 16.
Not only is this a clear hero advantage for Necro, the same mistake is made with creatures, since all creatures have an intrinsic Moral and Luck value, and it stands to reason that the weight of those is overrated the same as with heroes, which would mean that Necro creatures's lack of Moral points is (over)compensated with other things.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 23, 2012 01:17 PM |
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Oh  I think perhaps we are talking about two different things. I thought you talked about the Destiny skill which gives 2 additional Destiny points, but perhaps you were talking about native Hero stats being increased on level up (like old Attack/Defence/Spellpower/Knowledge) - do I understand that correctly?
PS: Destiny skills still seem to such major time, however.
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