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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted October 12, 2014 10:59 AM |
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hobo2 made original post in inferno lineup thread. He already got qp for it.
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Hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 11:01 AM |
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I do think that you should make fun of Dungeon slightly differently than you make fun of Inferno. Inferno's big problem is that if you see a red dude with a whip, you have no idea what it does. That could be a melee unit, a ranged unit, or a support unit. Absolutely any creature in the faction could throw fireballs or cast spells, and there are no visual cues. The titles aren't any help either - the H3 Pit Lord is a support unit that makes troops and the H6 Pit Lord is a badass who beats things up with a sword.
Dungeon on the other hand is defined by one thing more than any other: Creature Churn. While you can look at a Minotaur or a Harpy and instantly figure out that they are a melee and a skirmish unit respectively, you can't really know that either one of them is actually in the Dungeon. In the move from Heroes 2 to Heroes 3, four of six of their troops were given to other factions (four different other factions). In the move from H3 to H4, they got assigned five creatures from other towns and neutral dwellings. In the move for H4 to H5, they lost four units to Stronghold and Inferno, and only kept 3. Heck, moving forward, the Dungeon didn't even keep their original hero, as the Warlock itself defected to the Inferno.
The whole "purple" thing was pretty bad in Heroes 6, but honestly all of the factions got painted in their colors pretty heavily by Ubisoft. You don't notice for Stronghold because their color is brown, but it sure stands out for Sanctuary and Necropolis. Before Ubisoft took over, Dungeon's color was orange and no one noticed or cared because the heraldrics weren't so in-your-face.
How To Design A Dungeon Lineup
The first thing you have to understand when dealing with Dungeon fans is that they like change and have little attachment to the past. So before you do anything, look at the previous incarnations of the Dungeon and then make sure that less than half of the slots are filled with returning units. You wouldn't want Dungeon players to get bored by continuity! If there are any of those units that you really like, don't put them in the Dungeon, give them to another faction. You don't need to explain any of these changes with lore or backstory, just do it. Dungeon players love surprises.
Now that you've gotten rid of all that old school dead weight, it's time to design your Dungeon's mechanics. Do you need a shooty faction? A brawler faction? A flying mobility army? A heavy direct damage faction? A buff/debuff faction? Whatever, there are absolutely no limits, nor should you feel constrained to do anything vaguely similar to what previous iterations of the Dungeon were about. Remember, Dungeon players love surprises, and fundamental themes of how their army plays are no exception. Think about what niches you will need to fill based on the way your vision of the army calls for. An archery faction will need two core ranged strikers, while a mobility army will need a rapid skirmisher in core. Basic requirements are as follows:
Necessary Dungeon Slots:
• Exactly 3 Core Creatures.
• Exactly 3 Elite Creatures.
• Exactly 2 Champion Creatures.
• Exactly 3 Warfare Units.
• At Least 1 Core Ranged Unit.
• At Least 1 Core Melee Unit.
• At Least 1 Skirmish Unit at any level.
• At Least 1 Support Unit at any level.
• At Most 3 Units returning from the previous game.
This leaves a lot of undetermined slots, both mechanically and thematically. Units can be Ranged, Melee, Skirmish, or Support, and only 2 of the core units are fixed. Similarly, only 3 of 8 of the creatures are going to be repeat offenders, and you have 19 races and 6 classes of Elf to pick from for those repeat units. And while that means that units are going to repeat at a rate of less than 1:8, you have even more choice on where to rip things off from to get the other 5.
It might be tempting to dip into other Might and Magic games to get units, what with the title of the game being "Heroes of Might and Magic." Indeed, with ten full length RPGs that all spend a lot of time in dungeons, you'd probably think that there was more than enough creatures to inspire five or even fifty five monsters for the Dungeon. And you'd be right, but don't do that. That's exactly the kind of continuity that Deungeon players aren't looking for. What you should do instead is to go to other popular fantasy games and series and rip off their ideas almost closely enough to get yourself sued. Why use your own extensive IP when you haven't yet ripped off Game of Thrones or Iron Kingdoms? Heck, there are still Warhammer and D&D creatures that haven't been stolen yet, and the clock is ticking.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 12, 2014 11:50 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
I wouldn't be surprised if they just contradicted H5 lore 
Yup, that can be possible as well 
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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PhoenixMK
Hired Hero
Burn baby, BURN!!!
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posted October 12, 2014 11:58 AM |
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This is my wish list:
CORE
1. Assassins(H6)
2. Furies (H5)
3. Evil Eye (H4) or Shadow Witch (H5)
ELITE
4. Gorgon (H3)
5. Manticore (H6)
6. Minotaur (H3)
CHAMPION
7. Faceless (H6)
8. Hydra (H5)
NO BLACK DRAGONS!
Although they are my favorite units, I prefer Hydra and Faceless as champion units in Dungeon.
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"I'm Phoenix. If I die it's only to be reborn — hopefully better and brighter than before."
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted October 15, 2014 01:18 PM |
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Edited by Sorts at 13:19, 15 Oct 2014.
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Probably spam, but thematically appopriate: Relations
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 15, 2014 01:35 PM |
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Sorts said:
Probably spam, but thematically appopriate: Relations
said this before myself!thank sylanna we got rid of those.
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted October 15, 2014 02:06 PM |
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 15, 2014 02:08 PM |
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Wellplay said:
Blame D&D for it.
no one put a knife at the past devs to use them though. they should have done their homework and not copy D&D.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 15, 2014 02:09 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 14:11, 15 Oct 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
said this before myself!thank sylanna we got rid of those.
Yes, especially now that Medusae are Nagas.
Quote:
they should have done their homework and not copy D&D.
At least they were better at copying things than the company that took over.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 15, 2014 02:22 PM |
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Avirosb said:
ChrisD1 said:
said this before myself!thank sylanna we got rid of those.
Yes, especially now that Medusae are Nagas.
Quote:
they should have done their homework and not copy D&D.
At least they were better at copying things than the company that took over.
indeed a naga medusa is a gorgon with a twist. a D&D gorgon was a very very twisted "medusa". not cool. at all.
still doing your own work beats copying.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 15, 2014 03:05 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
indeed a naga medusa is a gorgon with a twist. a D&D gorgon was a very very twisted "medusa". not cool. at all.
still doing your own work beats copying.
It's cooler than the namesake, otherwise it has very little to do with the Medusas.
Perhaps they felt 'Catoblepas/Khalkotauroi' were too awkward.
'Sides, I'm pretty sure there are no 'gorgons' in Ashan;
the subspecies is called Medusa, the species is Naga (a much more uncool change if you ask me).
Alas, I'm afraid originality is an impossibility in this day an age,
considering people will make comparisons regardless of whether or not one is trying to be original.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 15, 2014 03:15 PM |
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Avirosb said:
ChrisD1 said:
indeed a naga medusa is a gorgon with a twist. a D&D gorgon was a very very twisted "medusa". not cool. at all.
still doing your own work beats copying.
It's cooler than the namesake, otherwise it has very little to do with the Medusas.
Perhaps they felt 'Catoblepas/Khalkotauroi' were too awkward.
at least they did look like gorgons. that was my point. khalkotauroi is way cooler(means taures made of copper)
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 15, 2014 03:30 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 15:30, 15 Oct 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
at least they did look like gorgons. that was my point. khalkotauroi is way cooler(means taures made of copper)
Sounds plain dumb IMHO.
Speaking of things that didn't look like they're supposed to, H6 had plenty.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 18, 2014 03:55 AM |
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Avirosb said:
ChrisD1 said:
said this before myself!thank sylanna we got rid of those.
Yes, especially now that Medusae are Nagas.
to be fair, "Medusa" is now a title, not the name of a species.
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JeremiahEmo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted October 18, 2014 06:41 AM |
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PhoenixMK said:
This is my wish list:
CORE
1. Assassins(H6)
2. Furies (H5)
3. Evil Eye (H4) or Shadow Witch (H5)
ELITE
4. Gorgon (H3)
5. Manticore (H6)
6. Minotaur (H3)
CHAMPION
7. Faceless (H6)
8. Hydra (H5)
NO BLACK DRAGONS!
Although they are my favorite units, I prefer Hydra and Faceless as champion units in Dungeon.
this is the most horrible, uninspired, dull lineup I've seen in my life. You want to kill Dungeon?
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Antikouras23
Hired Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 12:45 AM |
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My concept
CORE
1) assasin
2)beholder
3)witch
ELITE
1)Minotaur
2)Manticore
3)shadow panther
Champion
1)Black dragon
2)Hydra
perhaps faceless can be warfare units
I also like troglodytes but we have only 8 units 
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 03:35 AM |
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I dont love the idea of the shadow panther. I mean its just a purple panther. The deer at least can show off with their antlers but the panther is bleh.
If it depended on me id have furies, chakram dancers, medusas, witches and Malassa's Daughters in on line up but that'd probably be really snowty balance wise.
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Antikouras23
Hired Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 03:52 AM |
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I liked the concept of shadow panthers. They dont have to be purple though. They can be black. At least panthers are predators deers are...deers! Plus i dont think that furries and chacram dancers(although they werent bad units) are suitable for elite. And i
prefer the lineup to have 2 elf units not more.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 04:10 AM |
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Antikouras23 said:
I liked the concept of shadow panthers. They dont have to be purple though. They can be black. At least panthers are predators deers are...deers! Plus i dont think that furries and chacram dancers(although they werent bad units) are suitable for elite. And i
prefer the lineup to have 2 elf units not more.
I guess we can agree to disagree. I cab see the deer looking magical and special. Panthers will just look like...panthers. I like dark elves.so i wouldnt mind a lineup full of them but while its a lineup id like,i dont think itd be best because most wouldnt
That being said my fanwank (and surely snowty one way or the other) lineup would be
Core
Assassin
Fury
Chakram dancer
Elite
Medusa
Minotaur
Witch
Champion
Black Dragon
Faceless
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 08:38 AM |
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They put wolves in Haven, that's fine because that lineup needed refreshment but Dungeon certainly does not need the shadow panther over a more interesting creature, and that includes the Shadow Witch for me.
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