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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 11:00 AM |
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Avirosb said:
ChrisD1 said:
some factions are still evolving and we must let them take their own unique shape in ashan, and not interrupt that process with nostalgia.
There has only ever been one dungeon-aligned faction in the NWC series.
Ubi took that concept, added Warhammer and are stretching it over three games.
The only ones interrupting the process here is Ubi who can't decide on a direction.
you are forgetting the fact that we changed universe. now dungeon is smth else, smth new. even if it borrowed stuff from other games. but evolving dungeon from the previous ashan dungeons in H7 is the main issue here. not its overall evolution from enroth. there is not evolution there. enroth ended.
so while in ashan this evolution of dungeon is interrupted by throwing molotovs filled with nostalgia tears and fire.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 08, 2014 11:01 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
you are forgetting the fact that we changed universe. now dungeon is smth else, smth new. even if it borrowed stuff from other games. but evolving dungeon from the previous ashan dungeons in H7 is the main issue here. not its overall evolution from enroth. there is not evolution there. enroth ended.
so while in ashan this evolution of dungeon is interrupted by throwing molotovs filled with nostalgia tears and fire.
Who needs those old fans anyway. They keep ruining everything with their demands and their buying of the games.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 11:07 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 11:17, 08 Oct 2014.
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Alex_Yakub said:
Who said those stronger forces are fast? They most likely consist of shock troops and heavy infantry, so yes, minotaurs are fitting there. As for why keep minotaurs, you already said it yourself. Nostalgia. It is never bad if it is given in right quantities  And I already explained how they fit into Ashan's Dungeon, not to mention it is clearly explained in the lore.
you are forgetting yesterday's description of dungeon. the fact that shock infantry was mentioned does not stranslate to minotaurs.
i absolutely agree with you. nostalgia is not bad if given in small quantities. like the evil eyes. they kept their name and function and were retconned quite well to fit dungeon. minotaurs on the other hand remained beastmen that do not fit these gloomy caves full of darkness and fume.
the way it was explained they fit(being a gift and all) was a very big stretch so they can include them. i'd raher have a more homogenous dungeon that makes sense and not have inconsistencies here and there. the black dragon and the evil eye are enough for nostalgia.
then comes hydra and assassin from H5. then one or two new creatures and faceless from H6 and there you have a nice dungeon that is consistent around its theme. darkness. stealth. horror.
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Alex_Yakub
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 11:10 AM |
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I don't know, ChrisD1. You say many right things, but I still find minotaurs are fitting. Maybe it's just a matter of taste
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 11:12 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 11:16, 08 Oct 2014.
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War-overlord said:
ChrisD1 said:
you are forgetting the fact that we changed universe. now dungeon is smth else, smth new. even if it borrowed stuff from other games. but evolving dungeon from the previous ashan dungeons in H7 is the main issue here. not its overall evolution from enroth. there is not evolution there. enroth ended.
so while in ashan this evolution of dungeon is interrupted by throwing molotovs filled with nostalgia tears and fire.
Who needs those old fans anyway. They keep ruining everything with their demands and their buying of the games.
haha. the key word here is balance dear. old fans should be considered, but not EXCLUSIVELY. and of course they shouldn't be disregarded completely. and i never said that.
if we put it into numbers,2 units from h3(dragon,eye maybe renegade medusae?) are enough. especially when everyone is yapping about how the black dragon is superior as an iconic creature than a manticore for example. the game still remains the same formula that we old fans loved. and that's why we play it.
need i say the similarities again? old fans were never disregarded, and the shouldn't be. but there has to be some measure in that, else we end up with inconsistencies.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 11:15 AM |
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Alex_Yakub said:
I don't know, ChrisD1. You say many right things, but I still find minotaurs are fitting. Maybe it's just a matter of taste
it comes down to that alex! i like minotaurs too as a design and their abilities. i don't want them in dungeon though. but if you like your dungeon with minotaurs in it because of taste, then hats off to you my friend.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 11:24 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
So while in ashan this evolution of dungeon is interrupted by throwing molotovs filled with nostalgia tears and fire.
And again we can only blame Ubi for the lack of direction.
They need to decide whether they want Dungeon to be Perpetual Warhammer Light or a nostalgia hole full of misery and tears.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 08, 2014 11:32 AM |
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ChrisD1 said:
haha. the key word here is balance dear. old fans should be considered, but not EXCLUSIVELY. and of course they shouldn't be disregarded completely. and i never said that.
if we put it into numbers,2 units from h3 are enough. especially when everyone is yapping about how the black dragon is superior as an iconic creature than a manticore for example. the game still remains the same formula that we old fans loved. and that's why we play it.
need i say the similarities again? old fans were never disregarded, and the shouldn't be. but there has to be some measure in that, else we end up with inconsistencies.
Thing is, Minotaurs are more iconic then the Black Dragons are, having seniority over them with one game. Black Dragons were a HII creation, whereas Minotaurs have always been there.
Also, just putting in 2 creatures from HIII is a great disservice to all the other games and the people who liked them. Just because HIII was the best regarded, doesn't make that you can simply ignore everything else.
And as far as inconsistencies go, taking something out that has always been in, has always been accepted and loved there, has been listed as an iconic ally of the faction in the series-bible(Compendium) and have been propperly explained; that would be a greater inconsistency then taking them out, just because you think they cannot be sneaky.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 11:35 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 11:54, 08 Oct 2014.
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Avirosb said:
ChrisD1 said:
So while in ashan this evolution of dungeon is interrupted by throwing molotovs filled with nostalgia tears and fire.
And again we can only blame Ubi for the lack of direction.
They need to decide whether they want Dungeon to be Perpetual Warhammer Light or a nostalgia hole full of misery and tears.
you know what?the first one is indeed ubi's fault although i have no knowledge of warhammer. but i trust you on that. they shouldn't write dungeon that way. they could write it the old way.
BUT since they wrote it that way, why not let it make its course and see where it ends up? it might be smth original in the end or at worst consistent (even if it is a copy from another game). (given they already gave us black dragons and evil eyes)
burden it with nostalgia too much though, and it goes to a place that is just awful. half h3-half warhammer, and in the ashan lore it becomes unstable and distasteful. a very crappy mix that is original in a very bad light. and that's where the fans are to blame. i wasn't around here in H5 but the outrage should have been then.
as marzhin said ashan is here to stay and it should be best to work with it.
War-overlord said:
Thing is, Minotaurs are more iconic then the Black Dragons are, having seniority over them with one game. Black Dragons were a HII creation, whereas Minotaurs have always been there.
Also, just putting in 2 creatures from HIII is a great disservice to all the other games and the people who liked them. Just because HIII was the best regarded, doesn't make that you can simply ignore everything else.
And as far as inconsistencies go, taking something out that has always been in, has always been accepted and loved there, has been listed as an iconic ally of the faction in the series-bible(Compendium) and have been propperly explained; that would be a greater inconsistency then taking them out, just because you think they cannot be sneaky.
I'm out of posts
minotaurs got included because of the fans.
with the plethora of heroes games (counting might and magic ones as seen in the evolution of heroes games in some pictures) to disservice some of them is perfectly natural. else you end up tangled up with millions of monsters. that's why i keep mentioning H3. it the most iconic game of heroes.
the explanation was a stretch given yesterday's description.if not for that text i wouldn't have half the arguments i have now.
also sneaky minotaurs are as natural and make sense, as three horned unicorns and two headed cerberi.
@verriker
stop ending your sentences with "lol"
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 08, 2014 11:39 AM |
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Edited by verriker at 11:44, 08 Oct 2014.
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yeah come on, I can put up with dark elves being the leaders, even though I don't like it, and we've even lost the warlocks,
but if you kick the Minotaur out of the Dungeon completely, that's when it totally stops being the Dungeon and becomes false advertising lol
ChrisD1 said:
and that's where the fans are to blame. i wasn't around here in H5 but the outrage should have been then.
again, fans aren't to blame because Ubi insisted to put in dark elves, there was never a community vote to have dark elves or minotaurs lead the Dungeon (or to have any dark elves period lol)
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted October 08, 2014 12:34 PM |
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I guess dark elves were pretty much a given seeing how at the time LotR was the pinnacle of influence, combined with dark elves of warhammer and especially TES Morrowind. They were dominating the high fantasy genre as the renegade faction which was highly favorable and in turn it protruded into heroes games.
Can't say I have anything against dark elves, but they do not belong in heroes. Imho the fact that whatever faction they dish out, they try to justify the faction's views on the world, trying to paint the world grey instead of black white (eg. demons want freedom, dark elves want seclusion, necros trying to heal their comrades (like wth is that supposed to be -- necro's being diseased lol) etc.). However, what they fail to do is make it logical according to the general perception of the faction as well as its alignment.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 12:39 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 12:40, 08 Oct 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
you know what?the first one is indeed ubi's fault although i have no knowledge of warhammer. but i trust you on that. they shouldn't write dungeon that way. they could write it the old way.
H5 Dungeons was pretty much "inspired" by WH in all ways except the writing. Compared to them, Ashan dark elves are rather tame, to put it mildly. Subtle, even.
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burden it with nostalgia too much though, and it goes to a place that is just awful. half h3-half warhammer, and in the ashan lore it becomes unstable and distasteful.
I dunno, a lot of people seem to like H5.
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a very crappy mix that is original in a very bad light. and that's where the fans are to blame. i wasn't around here in H5 but the outrage should have been then.
Voices were raised and opinions were made.
Death threats were thankfully scarce.
Complaints were mostly aimed at the terribad writing.
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as marzhin said ashan is here to stay and it should be best to work with it.
Difference is he's getting paid to do it 
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I'm out of posts
minotaurs got included because of the fans.
That's one theory.
Or it could be because they felt they had to get rid of some of the more Warhammer inspired units and couldn't think of any other creature at the time.
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also sneaky minotaurs are as natural and make sense, as three horned unicorns and two headed cerberi.
Ever watched the movie Minotaur?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 12:52 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 13:35, 08 Oct 2014.
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out of posts again
I'd say the term "half h3-half warhammer" applies to Heroes 5.
H5. they have taken steps forward though. we now have more variables to consider so that "half&half worked then" does not mean it will work now.
This is the people who brought us such classics as Magic Bird and Spring Spirit after all.
magic bird will change that was said. as for its lore we are still waiting. nothing wrong with that.
spring spirits are hated just because. that's not an argument. they have brought us many more good stuff than bad.
Well yeah, because Ubisoft won't let them.
ubi does not let pikemen be in dungeon too.
my point is that minos can work with the new described concept if they are heavily retconned. but after that you won't have a minotaur. :/
the way they are now is what does not let them to live in the current envirroment that was described. or ubi writting that current setting for the dark elves.
so instead of changing something they already released as info, why not just replace minotaurs with something more fitting? hydra,grim stalker,shadow witch,even medusae siding with dungeon make more sense. if you have to, blind manticores. or other creatures of darkness.
they can be skipped and we still have a sense of dungeon in ashan.
again we are in ashan. other creatures from the past made it. that doesn't mean ALL creatures from enroth must make it.
minos are out of retconning options i get it. a shame. yet it happened:/
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 01:13 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 13:14, 08 Oct 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
h5 dungeon wasn't a nostalgia fest, and h5 was before that insight we got yesterday which changes many things.
I'd say the term "half h3-half warhammer" applies to Heroes 5.
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because he works with ubi means ashan is not going away for sure. when i say lets work with it i mean lets accept it and work it out in our minds.
Oh, I accepted that a long time ago.
Trust me, I'd be much more disagreeable if I hadn't.
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-the theory you suggest is worse because instead of picking minos for their role in dungeon they picked them because they were out of creatures.
This is the people who brought us such classics as Magic Bird and Spring Spirit after all.
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he was sneaky because he was confronted in a maze. not in the battle field. he can't turn invisible,or "feign death", or trick enemies with abilities that confuse them.
Well yeah, because Ubisoft won't let them.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted October 08, 2014 01:25 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 13:38, 08 Oct 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
also sneaky minotaurs are as natural and make sense, as three horned unicorns and two headed cerberi.
Sneaky minotaurs make same sense as having multiply creatures named: Minotaur, Medusa, Cerberus, Hydra, Scylla, Nidhogg or others.
Not at all.
We can have minotaurs: warlocks (HoMM3), shamans (MM8), thieves (HoMM4), warriors (all Heroes games) or ninja (HoMM4 ), if developers wants to have them. It has nothing with logic.
EDIT:
And we had three horned "unicorns" - Triceratops.
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 08, 2014 01:26 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
also sneaky minotaurs are as natural and make sense, as three horned unicorns and two headed cerberi.
Took me freaking ages to find these images
"Tricorn" and "Night tricorn" from and old hungarian card game.
 
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 08, 2014 01:42 PM |
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The original Minotaur (literally, the Taurus of Minos) lived in a labyrinth. Although I couldn't find specifics whether that labyrinth was actually underground, people did find multiple labyrinths from ancient times that were created in cave complexes.
A labyrinth in itself is already dealing with closed confines, playing on ones' feeling of claustrophobia, especially since the Minotaur presents a danger that can lurk around every corner.
So, in that light, I think the Minotaur fits perfectly with the Dungeon design in this game.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 08, 2014 01:48 PM |
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verriker said:
but if you kick the Minotaur out of the Dungeon completely, that's when it totally stops being the Dungeon and becomes false advertising.
Well said.
ChrisD1 said:
minotaurs got included because of the fans.
with the plethora of heroes games (counting might and magic ones as seen in the evolution of heroes games in some pictures) to disservice some of them is perfectly natural. else you end up tangled up with millions of monsters. that's why i keep mentioning H3. it the most iconic game of heroes.
the explanation was a stretch given yesterday's description.if not for that text i wouldn't have half the arguments i have now.
Which brings me back to my original point. If Including Minotaurs=Pleasing Fans; then Kicking Minotaurs=Displeasing Fans. Therefore you saying "Kick Minotaurs" = you saying "Screw the Fans".
As for the Millions of Monsters argument. 1. We've had that for years, that was never a reason to stop including staples. 2. There's an easy way around that problem by stopping limiting factions to 7 creatures. We're getting 8 now, but baby steps is better then no steps. 3. The Minotaur was already a staple by HIII. If you wish to keep iconic creatures, but advocate kicking the iconic creature of the iconic game, then you're contradicting yourself.
And as for the explaination and that making Minotaurs a stretch, that is bullhonkey.
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before hitting with better and stronger forces: Beasts from the darkness and Elite troops equipped with armours and weapons crafted from Shadowsteel
As the "Elite troops armed with Shadowsteel" describes HVI Minotaurs to a T.
Furthermore, every line of cursive text in yesterday's article is Compendium Rehash and therefor nothing new. Seeing as the Compendium was released before SoD, and the Minotaur fitted in well then, they should do so now, since nothing has changed. On top of that, as described by HVI and the Compendium, Minotaurs have, since their release from slavery, converted to the worship of Malassa and the relationship between the DElves and the Minotaurs is mutually benificial. Plus, Marzhin has revealed yesterday to us, that only the Soulscar DElves kept their Minotaurs enslaved, which means that in the majority of DElf-society Minotaurs are equal members.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 01:52 PM |
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It's really weird that people are picking on Minotaurs and Hydras as monsters that they have a difficult time being sneaky. In the original stories, both monsters were very well known for being sneaky. The original Minotaur stalks a maze and ambushes people in it. The original Hydra stalks a swamp and ambushes people in it. Both monsters are canonically good at hiding and moving without noise.
A Hydra has a divided body. It can fit into any hiding space that a creature its size can fit into, but it can also fit into several different nearby hiding spaces. A Behemoth needs a very very big tree to hide behind, but a Hydra can fit behind seven small ones.
The Minotaur creeps silently in the dark. It lives in a maze of caverns without light and tracks its prey by sound and smell without making a noise of its own. That's how Minotaurs work. Theseus defeated it by making it give its presence away with a trip wire, not because it was loud or bad at hiding in the dark.
If you want to complain about Dungeon monsters not fitting with a "sneaky aesthetic," minotaurs and hydras are not the hills you want to die on. You should probably complain about Black Dragons. Because those are about as subtle as a rhinoceros in full armor that is on fire. Minotaurs and Hydras are some of the sneakiest monsters in mythology. Black Dragons... not so much.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 01:58 PM |
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Hobo2 said:
You should probably complain about Black Dragons. Because those are about as subtle as a rhinoceros in full armor that is on fire. Minotaurs and Hydras are some of the sneakiest monsters in mythology. Black Dragons... not so much.
Well they are black...when they aren't purple.
Not that black dragons need stealth to begin with, they're friggin' black dragons 
But guys, maybe this is the game where the Minotaurs finally get enslaved completely by the Dark Elves. Yipee hooray, eh?
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