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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 08, 2014 08:22 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Minotaurs have exactly the same reason to be creatures of Darkness as the Dark Elves do. Because they have converted to the worship of the Goddess of Darkness. If that doesn't do for Minotaurs, then it doesn't for Dark Elves either. Marzhin has explained that there is no physical difference between Sylvan and Dungeon Elves. They are both Elves and Elves are creatures of the forests. But both Elves and Minotaurs have converted to the worship of Darkness, which is their justification of living in Caves alongside the Faceless.
well said
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted October 08, 2014 08:34 PM |
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And Elves aren't the only ones that changed their worship. Remember, Humans used to worship Sylath (ad were created by him), but most of them switched to Elrath later. So, I don't see a problem for any race to worship any dragon.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 09:35 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:48, 08 Oct 2014.
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People who complain about minotaurs in the Dungeon because they were there in H3/4 have missed the irony that they were also there in H5/6, so removing them for H7 which is set between H6 and H5 makes exactly zero sense. Hells, if you want a non-H3 lineup, drop evil eyes and manticores, at least they were only in H6 and not H5.
As for iconic, the minotaur is among a very select bunch that have been in every iteration of the game and each time been in the same faction, minotaurs, cyclopses, archers, knights and maybe dungeon dragons depending on how you count them (the first one wasn't black).
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 10:01 PM |
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MattII said:
As for iconic, the minotaur is among a very select bunch that have been in every iteration of the game and each time been in the same faction, minotaurs, cyclopses, archers, knights and maybe dungeon dragons depending on how you count them (the first one wasn't black).
INB4 it goes the way of the Unicorn.
Yeah, Sylvan was wholly absent during H6 but still 
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 10:26 PM |
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DarkLord said:
also please stop mentioning mantis as they were never in dungeon
they were summonable creature in Heroes4 associated with nature faction
manticores=mantis, minotaurs=minos and so on. 
War-overlord said:
There is quite a difference between plenty and thrice as many. I don't know how many people do or don't care, you'd need a big poll for that. But I am convinced in my belief that the amount of people who care is enough to make a difference.
your belief is not fact. or else mine is too and i'm convinced in my belief that most fans now won't care since ashan is now "old" and now most of the fans started with ashan.
War-overlord said:
Minotaurs have exactly the same reason to be creatures of Darkness as the Dark Elves do. Because they have converted to the worship of the Goddess of Darkness. If that doesn't do for Minotaurs, then it doesn't for Dark Elves either. Marzhin has explained that there is no physical difference between Sylvan and Dungeon Elves. They are both Elves and Elves are creatures of the forests. But both Elves and Minotaurs have converted to the worship of Darkness, which is their justification of living in Caves alongside the Faceless.
a very good argument. my opinion still stands though. a natural dark cave creature is closer than minos for a spot in dungeon, nostalgia aside. the alternatives are much more enticing and close to the dungeon theme.
the dark elves were the first that made the deal with malassa and created the dungeon. the rest followed so dark elves are not equal with minotaurs. dark elves are the founders of dungeon. minos are not.
but thanks to that particular argument you made i'm going to be less irritated(if not at all actually) by their presence in dungeon.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted October 08, 2014 10:36 PM |
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Were it not Ashan, I'd very much want a minotaur in inferno  with searing hooves and breathing fire down their snouts 
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 10:36 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 22:55, 08 Oct 2014.
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Avirosb said:
Yeah, Sylvan was wholly absent during H6 but still
Yes, but that puts them in the same boat as Academy and Necropolis.
ChrisD1 said:
a very good argument. my opinion still stands though. a natural dark cave creature is closer than minos for a spot in dungeon, nostalgia aside.
Except it's canon (not nostalgia) that minotaurs were in both before and after, so dropping them for H7 makes absolutely no sense.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 11:01 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
the alternatives are much more enticing and close to the dungeon theme.
Which alternatives though?
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Paiazza
Known Hero
لىخ ضل
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posted October 08, 2014 11:11 PM |
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Some creatures seem to almost be the same only recolored / renamed / rethemed.
Like if minotaur was red was demon, but if it's purple is minotaur, and it also calls meteors and chain lightning ...
If witch with whip has wings and it's red is succubus, if she's purple and doesn't have wings, well ... it's witch.
Faceless seems more like a fallen angel that would more fit inferno (if it was red) which it isn't, yep you guessed it, it's purple, and it fits dungeon.
Beholder / lurker seems like a mini version breeder that actually has a lot of eyes, yep, it's purple so it fits dungeon.
I'd like new and fresh dungeon lineups rather than these.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 08, 2014 11:25 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
a very good argument. but thanks to that particular argument you made i'm going to be less irritated(if not at all actually) by their presence in dungeon.
Thank you.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 09, 2014 12:18 AM |
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Avirosb said:
ChrisD1 said:
the alternatives are much more enticing and close to the dungeon theme.
Which alternatives though?
in elite field:
-shadow witch
-manticore
-grim stalker
-hydra
-shadow snake(now that'w where snakes belong)
-any other creature that is of malassa and darkness or lives in the caves and didn't arrive later as a gift.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted October 09, 2014 12:38 AM |
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I will repeat myself but shadow snake is/would be a basilisk and I guess this would be as close as it gets. And it would make perfect sense in a dungeon lineup now, if they were more serpentine in nature than their h3 counterparts (ie, smth slithery like in harry potter 2).
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted October 09, 2014 01:18 AM |
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CORE
Assassin - melee. One elven unit type among Dungeon troops is absolutely OK for me.
Lurker - ranged / support. Really loved this creature in "HVI".
Medusa - ranged. I miss her. Having Hydras in Elites makes Medusa look more fitting to the armies of Dungeon. Hydra and Medusa can possibly have several common details in terms of their snake appearance. Moreover...
Quote:
There would be a pretty good reason for having Medusae in the Dungeon line-up actually. Remember those renegade Nagas Raelag defeated in Shades of Darkness?
Please!!! Bring them back to Dungeon! I'm OK with Coral Nagas, but Dungeon can also have a wild bloodthirsty version of them...
ELITE
Hydra - melee. Miss it too.
Manticore - melee / support. It was an enjoyable unit in "HVI".
Minotaur - melee. No comments.
CHAMPION
Black Dragon - melee. No comments.
Faceless - melee / support. An excellent alternative creature to Black Dragons.
NEUTRAL
Troglodyte - melee. A neutral creature guarding mines and randomly spawning in underground locations.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 09, 2014 01:24 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 01:24, 09 Oct 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
Avirosb said:
in elite field:
-shadow witch
-manticore
-grim stalker
-hydra
-shadow snake(now that'w where snakes belong)
-any other creature that is of malassa and darkness or lives in the caves and didn't arrive later as a gift.
Manticore and Hydra, two creatures even less associated with dark caves than the Minotaur?
Shadow Witch and Grim Stalker, two creatures directly influenced by Warhammer?
I'll give you Shadow Snake, though I fail to understand what's so enticing about them.
Couldn't have a more generic name if they had tried.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 09, 2014 07:28 AM |
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Avirosb said:
ChrisD1 said:
Avirosb said:
in elite field:
-shadow witch
-manticore
-grim stalker
-hydra
-shadow snake(now that'w where snakes belong)
-any other creature that is of malassa and darkness or lives in the caves and didn't arrive later as a gift.
Manticore and Hydra, two creatures even less associated with dark caves than the Minotaur?
Shadow Witch and Grim Stalker, two creatures directly influenced by Warhammer?
I'll give you Shadow Snake, though I fail to understand what's so enticing about them.
Couldn't have a more generic name if they had tried.
She's the Shadow Sorcerer now
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 09, 2014 09:43 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 09:47, 09 Oct 2014.
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Avirosb said:
Manticore and Hydra, two creatures even less associated with dark caves than the Minotaur?
Shadow Witch and Grim Stalker, two creatures directly influenced by Warhammer?
I'll give you Shadow Snake, though I fail to understand what's so enticing about them.
Couldn't have a more generic name if they had tried.
If a minotaur can live in the darkness,so a manticore can. wizards are generous with their creations...
Hydra being a reptilian can make more sense than the minos in the darkness.And it is a predator!
We saw shadow witches in the compendium and read about them more in the official site. That's exciting.
enough with the warhammer arguments. A dark elf warrior, mounted or not, makes sense in dungeon more. Now if dungeon is war hammer-ish that's another thing that doesn't have to do with this discussion since dungeon is created by dark elves. Open a new topic about their similarities and talk about that, there.
Do you expect me to come up with the names of the units?or that those i mentioned are to be the actual names? I'm simply describing the line up.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 09, 2014 10:05 AM |
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The original Minotaur (literally, the Taurus of Minos) lived in a labyrinth. Although I couldn't find specifics whether that labyrinth was actually underground, people did find multiple labyrinths from ancient times that were created in cave complexes.
A labyrinth in itself is already dealing with closed confines, playing on ones' feeling of claustrophobia, especially since the Minotaur presents a danger that can lurk around every corner.
So, in that light, I think the Minotaur fits perfectly with the Dungeon design in this game.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 09, 2014 10:06 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 10:07, 09 Oct 2014.
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ChrisD1 said:
If a minotaur can live in the darkness,so a manticore can.
Right, but you're saying they can't.
Quote:
Hydra being a reptilian can make more sense than the minos in the darkness. And it is a predator!
Because the Minotaur was exclusively herbivore, right?
Quote:
We saw shadow witches in the compendium and read about them more in the official site. That's exciting.
And also subjective opinion.
Quote:
enough with the warhammer arguments. A dark elf warrior, mounted or not, makes sense in dungeon more.
You still haven't told me why.
And don't use lore as an argument as Minotaurs figure into it as well.
Quote:
Do you expect me to come up with the names of the units?or that those i mentioned are to be the actual names? I'm simply describing the line up.
I can't even expect Ubi to come up with creative names for units, why should I expect it from you?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 09, 2014 03:13 PM |
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Avirosb said:
I'll give you Shadow Snake, though I fail to understand what's so enticing about them.
Couldn't have a more generic name if they had tried.
Actually the direct quote is pale snakes. Not like it changes much tho
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted October 09, 2014 05:20 PM |
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@Verriker: No. I am definitely not. Have a very large influence on Limbic staff tho.
As to fix my line-up proposal, I got to forget to include the level 3 creature.
Minotaurs are being lowered to level 3 as a semi tank unit and not so special of unit. Becomes Core.
Shadow witches become the new level 4 as powerful shooter/caster of the Elite type of special army forces.
The Faceless Swordsman becomes the new level 5 as the outmost tank-like offensive cleaving unit(gets to attack twice per turn + very powerful counter-attack when being attacked).
The Dark Horse version of an underground version of the Unicorn(Nightmares) becomes the new level 6 as the largest and fastest of the Elite type of special army forces.
The Grey(Shadowy)Dragon or, Black Dragon as the main level 7 as per choice for the best God-like attacking unit. All righty then, I'll go for the Deep Hydra for the other type of level 7 as they are known to despise the light of day and rather stay as a defensive unit inside the Underground Realm of the Dungeon City.
Level 1 stays as the Dark Hounds and, Level 2 stays as the Dark Elven Assassins.
Well, that pretty much conclude my line-up proposal and, how it should really end-up lore wise and, blue print as to start the drawing the units + making their movement sprites as per the creatures' art works.
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This thread is pages long: 
