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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 08, 2014 02:00 PM |
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Marzhin said:
verriker said:
I don't think the Minotaurs should be slaves at all though, that's one retcon I actually appreciate lol
I think we post-rationalized that by saying it's only the Soulscar clan that enslaved its minotaurs. But I don't know if that has passed into canon yet.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 08, 2014 02:20 PM |
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not sure what the logic is that all Dungeon creatures even need to be stealthy anyway, just because the dark elves are
I mean, it's like saying wolves and griffins must be pious because they're in Haven, or kappas and kirins should follow the Japanese code of honor, lmao
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 02:25 PM |
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Yeah, from that dungeon discovery it seemed that armies were mostly used as a last resort.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 04:19 PM |
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i'd like to see this discussion spirit on my mmh7 posts. i posted a big post yesterday, and still no dungeon voter really answered and defended. you guys dont care reasons i put there or have nothing to say in means to defend?
im starting to believe that most of you just voting dungeon over demon-hate/nostalgic sickness. maybe no acctual reasons at all?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 08, 2014 04:24 PM |
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@Clegglaw
Why have the same debate twice?
Also, why try to debate when you have a clear character-limit on your arguments which greatly hampers the ability to construct them in a meaningfull way?(Which is why twitter is a bad place to have an argument)
Also, why debate you, when the arguments you bring to bear did not and/or will not influence my vote?
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 04:34 PM |
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cleglaw said:
im starting to believe that most of you just voting dungeon over demon-hate/nostalgic sickness. maybe no acctual reasons at all?
What is there to be nostalgic about?
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 04:51 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 17:33, 08 Oct 2014.
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War-overlord said:
Thing is, Minotaurs are more iconic then the Black Dragons are, having seniority over them with one game. Black Dragons were a HII creation, whereas Minotaurs have always been there.
Also, just putting in 2 creatures from HIII is a great disservice to all the other games and the people who liked them. Just because HIII was the best regarded, doesn't make that you can simply ignore everything else.
And as far as inconsistencies go, taking something out that has always been in, has always been accepted and loved there, has been listed as an iconic ally of the faction in the series-bible(Compendium) and have been propperly explained; that would be a greater inconsistency then taking them out, just because you think they cannot be sneaky.
this is not true. it was just "Dragon", nothing pointing out about it if it is black or not. centaurs/gorgoyles/griffins/minotaurs are 4 different creatures from different factions today, so it is not some pre-dungeon faction at all too. there is hydra also to be mentioned, but hydra is constantly changing faction just like the gorgoyles did. and to mention medusa, she is just a neutral creature in those games.
chris has some really strong points and you cant really just ignore it by your nostalgic feels. one single noisy creature pack can destroy whole armies tactics and fightin style. minotaur is the most iconic creature of faction but the whole process of ashan dungeon took us to the point where it has no link with past games at all. darkness-dark theme is not something minotaurs can support.
on the other hand, other most iconical creature Black Dragon, in form of "Shadow Dragon", fits the theme with no problem at all.
accept the change and let go minotaur & hydra... or keep your eyes shut and kill a factions theme with nostalgic demands. this is simple as that now. no middle ground unless someone invents a "stealthy" minotaur & hydra. and as you might guess no-one gonna do that. its too funny to imagine minotaur/hydra becoming a creature of shadow & darkness. they are muscular,heavy and noisy creatures and they probably fit better with any other faction.
so my question goes to all dungeon voters here, even to marzhin and other developers.
will you ignore the facts and kill the darkness theme? or will you drop the old-valueble nostalgia? or you guys didnt even realised the situation in here?
personally, i dont want to be responsible in this. i say, just let dungeon dissappear till h8. when the timeline of dark messiah ends we can re-design, and welcome ideal dungeon.
Avirosb said:
cleglaw said:
im starting to believe that most of you just voting dungeon over demon-hate/nostalgic sickness. maybe no acctual reasons at all?
What is there to be nostalgic about?
desire to see iconical creatures=nostalgic demand
or i miss something in here?
War-overlord said:
@Clegglaw
...when you have a clear character-limit on your arguments...
you claim this on depending...?
im impatient and unkind, but not blind or fanatic.
misunderstood first. yeah but you know, its annoying but you can still divide and post, its not really preventing.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 04:52 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 16:54, 08 Oct 2014.
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War-overlord said:
Which brings me back to my original point. If Including Minotaurs=Pleasing Fans; then Kicking Minotaurs=Displeasing Fans. Therefore you saying "Kick Minotaurs" = you saying "Screw the Fans".
certain fans. a limited amount of fans. not all fans. for the billionth time they kept much more old stuff to please the old ones.
if the old fans want heroes 3.2 they can go and play that game with a mod and leave the rest of us alone. is it that hard?
War-overlord said:
As for the Millions of Monsters argument. 1. We've had that for years, that was never a reason to stop including staples. 2. There's an easy way around that problem by stopping limiting factions to 7 creatures. We're getting 8 now, but baby steps is better then no steps. 3. The Minotaur was already a staple by HIII. If you wish to keep iconic creatures, but advocate kicking the iconic creature of the iconic game, then you're contradicting yourself.
And as for the explaination and that making Minotaurs a stretch, that is bullhonkey.
wasn't you who ranked black dragon the most iconic for dungeon?(it's on their flag too). if not someone did and i agree now.
black dragon will be there to continue the tradition along with some evil eye or a renegade medusa. minotaur just doesn't fit since yesterday. is it that farfetched?
i wish to keep the iconic creatures that make the most sense in the current enviroment. minotaur is not one of them. the rest are though. do you need the EXACT same line up from previous heroes? i think you do. a pity.
and calling smth "bullhonkey" is not an argument.
minotaurs are beastmen, not creatures of darkness, the way hydras,dark elves, evil eyes and black dragons are. there is no connection. so having them there as gift from wizards is a stretch to justify their presence in that setting.
should ashan dungeon was some other thing that had nothing to do with the darkness i wouldn't say a thing.
i'm done with this. you want to keep hanging from a thread, so you can feel the minotaurs belong? good for you.
i want my dungeon a bit more consistent to its theme, which in ashan is darkness and manipulation.
i have no other merit for not including minotaurs.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 05:15 PM |
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Avirosb said:
desire to see iconical creatures=nostalgic demand
or i miss something in here?
These Ashan versions tend to come with a twist, and couldn't be any further from what I'd call iconic.
Anyway, Inferno or Dungeon, it makes no difference to me.
Two of my once favorite factions, inhabited by angsty elves, blobs with spikes, balrogs and the color purple 
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 05:18 PM |
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Quote:
Minotaurs are beastmen, not creatures of darkness, the way hydras,dark elves, evil eyes and black dragons are.
The Hydra lived in a swamp.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted October 08, 2014 05:23 PM |
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Let's not be nostalgic about Erathia's creature of Heroes 3, OK?
As long as we can stay on the world of Ashan and its very wide array of mythical creatures, everything should end up, perfect.
I really do think that Nightmares should be used(whatever the name of the really dark + scary semi intelligent horse like creature) in Dungeon this time around instead of being cast as an Inferno upgrade of the Hellsteed. Could even be used as mounts for the reigning Dark Elves of that realm. Once again, fixing the lizard mount problem brought in by Nival Interactive in MMH5.
Dark Hounds should be the ever loyal companion of the Dark Elf society with a battle hardened upgrade that can only be used as military frontal attack troops.
Black Dragons are way better suited for dark and mysterious cave like realm. Hydras need to be on the surface world and, into bogs + swamp like surface environments. Hydras are too snake-serpent like mistakes of nature to fit in an underworld realm.
Assassins should be level 2 Core creatures this time around and, Shadow Matriarchs should be level 5 right after the Battle Minotaur at level 4's main Elite creatures instead of the weird line-up that be had in MMH5. A dark double sided sword weilding heavy armored Faceless warrior should be the newest level 6 of the Elite troops of the New Dungeon of Ashan.
I really do think that my merging of both fake infernal creatures into a restructured Dark-Elf realm like faction will be better suited for this redux edition of Might and Magic Heroes 7.
Just say that reading a very large array of posts of this totally new topic thread, really made me think about a line-up that would satisfy most of the fans of the series and, force a newer and, more damned like line-up for the Inferno faction, in the second expansion of MMH7.
Guess that I have given a little too many spoilers as for the upcoming Dungeon Faction.
Good day to you all.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 05:25 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 17:26, 08 Oct 2014.
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Avirosb said:
Avirosb said:
desire to see iconical creatures=nostalgic demand
or i miss something in here?
These Ashan versions tend to come with a twist, and couldn't be any further from what I'd call iconic.
Anyway, Inferno or Dungeon, it makes no difference to me.
Two of my once favorite factions, inhabited by angsty elves, blobs with spikes, balrogs and the color purple
i can understand your point, it took me so long to adapt this twists. but imho they are still same creatures, they just got aged and changed a bit(well maybe more than a bit lol) 
Avirosb said:
Quote:
Minotaurs are beastmen, not creatures of darkness, the way hydras,dark elves, evil eyes and black dragons are.
The Hydra lived in a swamp.
I think it still belongs swamp/water. someone on mmh7, hobo2 if i remember tight, pointed out it iss strongly connected with water in original myth.
and hydra has same problem as minotaurs do, they have nothing in common with dark elves darkness fight style.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 08, 2014 05:26 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
certain fans. a limited amount of fans. not all fans. for the billionth time they kept much more old stuff to please the old ones.
if the old fans want heroes 3.2 they can go and play that game with a mod and leave the rest of us alone. is it that hard?
If I wanted to play HIII, I would do so. If I wanted to debate HIII, I'd go to that part of the forum.
Wether you like it or not, there are plenty of fans who want to see staples return. And if you do not like it, saying someone should leave is not going to solve anything or have people take you seriously.
ChrisD1 said:
i wish to keep the iconic creatures that make the most sense in the current enviroment. minotaur is not one of them. the rest are though. do you need the EXACT same line up from previous heroes? i think you do. a pity.
and calling smth "bullhonkey" is not an argument.
And you ignoring everything I've brought to bear to explain why it makes enough sense, isn't a way to have a proper discussion either. That might even be seen as trolling or whining. Not wishing to imply that I do so.
cleglaw said:
this is not true. it was just "Dragon", nothing pointing out about it if it is black or not. centaurs/gorgoyles/griffins/minotaurs are 4 different creatures from different factions today, so it is not some pre-dungeon faction at all too.
I would debate the contrary. And I would point to this pageCreatures Evolution. And where I would agree that while many of the creatures from HII went faction hopping, the spirit of the Warlock Town continued into the Dungeon.
cleglaw said:
minotaur is the most iconic creature of faction but the whole process of ashan dungeon took us to the point where it has no link with past games at all.
I disagree. The fact that is is a Heroes Game makes that link.
Further more, as I've said to Chris which he conveniently chooses to ignore, Dungeon is not at a new point. It is at exactly the same point as it was 2 years ago when SoD came out. All this information is not new, it is over 2 years old. It was not a problem then, there is no reason for it to be now, since nothing has changed.
Also keep in mind that HVII is a prequel to HV. If something is present in HVI and in HV, you cannot cut something in between "Because it does not make sense anymore", only to have it back later and still make sense there.
cleglaw said:
you claim this on depending...?
Have you not noticed that for every letter you type, the number above your comment box decreases? You can type 500 characters in such a box. For replies longer then this, you need to comment on your own comment continually. Having to make a list of posts just to make one comment, that technically hampers making good discussions.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 05:48 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 17:48, 08 Oct 2014.
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War-overlord said:
I would debate the contrary. And I would point to this pageCreatures Evolution.
I see green dragon there too.
War-overlord said:
And where I would agree that while many of the creatures from HII went faction hopping, the spirit of the Warlock Town continued into the Dungeon.
what do you mean? plus my points stated, it was a also a surface town.
War-overlord said:
The fact that is is a Heroes Game makes that link.
i dont think this is enough.
Quote:
Further more, as I've said to Chris which he conveniently chooses to ignore, Dungeon is not at a new point. It is at exactly the same point as it was 2 years ago when SoD came out.
i agree.
War-overlord said:
All this information is not new, it is over 2 years old.
okay.
War-overlord said:
It was not a problem then, there is no reason for it to be now, since nothing has changed.
well, it was. what i wrote applies to SoD too. only difference, i was not here to tell before, but im now.
War-overlord said:
Also keep in mind that HVII is a prequel to HV. If something is present in HVI and in HV, you cannot cut something in between "Because it does not make sense anymore", only to have it back later and still make sense there.
it didnt make sense there and it still doesnt. its a new game in series, i think this cutting operation can be done without problems before it released. we have time, we have discussion, we have open development. so why not?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 08, 2014 05:59 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 18:03, 08 Oct 2014.
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War-overlord said:
If I wanted to play HIII, I would do so. If I wanted to debate HIII, I'd go to that part of the forum.
Wether you like it or not, there are plenty of fans who want to see staples return. And if you do not like it, saying someone should leave is not going to solve anything or have people take you seriously.
and there is the triple amount of fans who don't care about "staples". how do i know it? same way you know that plenty of fans want staples(like the black dragon). and how many "plenty" is?
War-overlord said:
And you ignoring everything I've brought to bear to explain why it makes enough sense, isn't a way to have a proper discussion either. That might even be seen as trolling or whining. Not wishing to imply that I do so.
I didn't ignore you. minotaurs make the least amount of sense than any other possible creature in dungeon. your explanation made sense but just barely. need i say all the creatures that would make more sense in the darkness than a minotaur does? the iconic part is another thing that we covered above. so take the "iconic" part away from them, and you suddenly have much better replacements given the dungeon territory. their status as iconic creatures is not enough to keep them in the line up. and your explanations gave solution to this, but poorly and by a stretch. the fact that you explained that they are heavy troops in shadowsteel armor is not enough to justify their presence in the darkness living down there.
of course you think that i'm trolling and whining because your mind can't grasp the idea that there are logic arguments enough against the minotaurs. so i must be trolling and being a whiner. no other logic explanation!!! EVER!
and if you didn't wish to imply trolling or whining you wouldn't have mentioned it bluntly. even in another context. that was low.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 08, 2014 06:04 PM |
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Minotaur is out, Dark Elemental is in.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 08, 2014 06:29 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Minotaur is out, Dark Elemental is in.
No no, Dark Deers are in!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 08, 2014 06:59 PM |
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cleglaw said:
this is not true. it was just "Dragon", nothing pointing out about it if it is black or not.
it was purple
lol
LucPatenaude said:
Guess that I have given a little too many spoilers as for the upcoming Dungeon Faction.
what do you mean here? are you a member of the insiders? lol
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 08, 2014 07:08 PM |
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cleglaw said:
I see green dragon there too.
what do you mean? plus my points stated, it was a also a surface town.
It is the theme of the faction that is continued. Warlock and Dungeon were factions that were lead by selfserving heroes who sought power. They attracted likeminded cruel beings and used magically enslaved creatures, who fight in their armies. That the Warlocks of Enroth choose to live above ground, while the Warlocks of Nighon choose to live underground does not make it that much of a difference.
And where Fortress and Inferno at the time were brought in as entirely new, the other 6 factions were much more successors of the old 6.
cleglaw said:
War-overlord said:
The fact that is is a Heroes Game makes that link.
i dont think this is enough..
Why, it is still the same franchise? By it's brand-recognition alone it is part of a history.
cleglaw said:
it didnt make sense there and it still doesnt. its a new game in series, i think this cutting operation can be done without problems before it released. we have time, we have discussion, we have open development. so why not?
It is your right to want to retroactively retcon them out. But such a thing will alienate people, me among them, and I do not think Ubisoft is prepared to take that risk.
ChrisD1 said:
and there is the triple amount of fans who don't care about "staples". how do i know it? same way you know that plenty of fans want staples(like the black dragon). and how many "plenty" is?
There is quite a difference between plenty and thrice as many. I don't know how many people do or don't care, you'd need a big poll for that. But I am convinced in my belief that the amount of people who care is enough to make a difference.
ChrisD1 said:
I didn't ignore you. minotaurs make the least amount of sense than any other possible creature in dungeon. your explanation made sense but just barely.
Then do not cut that part out of the quote. Doing so gives the impression that you're ignoring it for convenience sake.
ChrisD1 said:
and your explanations gave solution to this, but poorly and by a stretch. the fact that you explained that they are heavy troops in shadowsteel armor is not enough to justify their presence in the darkness living down there.
Minotaurs have exactly the same reason to be creatures of Darkness as the Dark Elves do. Because they have converted to the worship of the Goddess of Darkness. If that doesn't do for Minotaurs, then it doesn't for Dark Elves either. Marzhin has explained that there is no physical difference between Sylvan and Dungeon Elves. They are both Elves and Elves are creatures of the forests. But both Elves and Minotaurs have converted to the worship of Darkness, which is their justification of living in Caves alongside the Faceless.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted October 08, 2014 08:19 PM |
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Edited by DarkLord at 20:22, 08 Oct 2014.
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Saying that Minotaurs dont fit dungeon is nonsense!
they define the Dungeon faction!
the only thing that could have contradict is lore,
however, lore-wise their presence is explained.
also please stop mentioning mantis as they were never in dungeon
they were summonable creature in Heroes4 associated with nature faction
as for dark elves they made a pact with malassa
however the true race for malassa is faceless
all the creatures that live underground can be influenced by either of them
thus be present in dungeon line up and be part of faction
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