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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 07:37 PM |
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alcibiades said:
ChrisD1 said:
if swamp EVER returns it will be in the very distant future. why not squeeze a hydra in there?
Problem is even if I did not want to save Hydra for swamp faction, I don't really see a need to have it there. I think all three Elites above are good fits for Dungeon, and same goes for both Champions. If I had a hard time filling either spot Hydra would have been my next choice on the list, but .. I haven't ...
fair enough but a multi-headed poisonous reptilian sounds like a perfect fit for the current concept of dungeon and hard to pass up
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Hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 09:52 PM |
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The Dungeon lore section lists a number of creatures: Elves, Troglodytes, Giant Spiders, Serpents, Grim Stalkers, Black Dragons, Faceless. They aren't mentioned by name, but "creatures that look like stone but aren't" could plausibly be Gargoyles, and of course reference to the maze is a dead giveaway for Minotaurs. That is already more than can fit in the monster roster. Assuming one wanted to fit it all in, I think it could look kind of like this:
Concept: As the Faceless are the primary antagonists of the Angels, this Dungeon is the anti-Haven. So it pretty much has an answer for every Haven unit. But in addition to being matched mechanically, it is also matched thematically: where the Haven is Roman and Holy Roman Empire (that is to say: German), the Dungeon is Greek and Byzantine.
Core:
• Troglodyte / Troglodyte Myrmidon Everyone needs a basic melee unit, and these blind spearmen can be the ones for the Dungeon. Where Legionaires redirect enemy damage to themselves with their shields, the Myrmidons bring their long pikes to aid counterattacks of their allies (similar to a Justicar's opportunity retaliation).
• Stalker/Assassin Everyone needs a basic archery unit, and these Elves with crossbows and dark cloaks fit the bill. Where the Marksman has a piercing shot that fires through intervening enemies, the Assassins use poisoned quarrels which debuff the target.
• Giant Spider/Shadow Spider Where the Dire Wolves ferociously have unlimited counterattacking, the Giant Spiders have a more tactical defensive ambush: if an enemy moves to a space adjacent to the Giant Spider, the Spider uses their "counterattack" immediately. Shadow Spiders have a "shadow pounce," which allows them to move very far by teleporting through shadows to places unseen. However, rather than moving in a straight line like the Silverback's feral charge, the Shadow Pounce can only move to an open flanking position.
Elite:
• Grim Rider/Grim Raider It's an Elf on a Grim Stalker, as advertised. Where the Cavalier is a Frankish or German heavy knight, the Grim Rider is a Byzantine cataphract. They still rely on speed and charging, but where the Cuirassier has an overpowering bash that pushes enemies, the Grim Raider has a harrying feint where it moves away from their target before counterattacks can be made (space permitting).
• Minotaur/Minotaur Varangian The Dungeon's answer to a Justicar is a powerful beastman outfitted as a Byzantine elite guardsman. Yes, that means they wear purple cloaks. Their massive axes and huge horns push enemies back, preventing counterattack rather than attacking twice as Justicars do. They are guardians, and defend nearby allies, redirecting melee attacks to themselves if they have yet to use their counterattack. As the Justicar synergizes with the Legionaire, the Varangian synergizes with the Myrmidon.
• Medusa/Medusa Peltast Like the Chaplains and Abbots of the Haven, the Dungeon has an elite ranged striker. Where Chaplains provide additional defense to their allies with cleansing, the Medusa has a petrifying gaze. Medusa Peltasts have the ability to retaliate at range with their gaze of death, much as Aboots do.
Champions:
• White Dragon/Black Dragon The current lore is that those Dragons who aren't black are pale. So rather than being Red or Shadow, the unupgraded Dragon is now White. They are clearly the answer to Celestials. Where Celestials provide an aura of protection to allies, the Black Dragons move independently and have magic resistance that applies to them alone.
• Hydra/Deep Hydra While it's a giant mass of snakes rather than a champion is very heavy armor with a very heavy sword, the Deep Hydra is almost the same unit as the Swordmaster. It attacks in all directions because it is a Hydra with a whole lot of heads, and it can't be mind controlled because it's a Hydra with a whole lot of heads. Other than having slightly different numbers, it's pretty much the same thing.
Warfare Units:
• Faceless: The Faceless do not step or slither onto the field of battle, they stay behind the lines and advise the commanders and undermine their opponents. Able to assume any form, the Faceless can secure entrance to the most secure fortification.
• Crucible: Apothecaries and alchemists work behind the lines with strange mushrooms to produce vapors that treat the injured or sicken the enemy.
• Shadowveil Loom: Visionary priests spread strands of darkness across the battlefield that offer protection from enemy weapons to specific allies.
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All in all, not my favorite possible Dungeon layout. But my favorite interpretation of the Ashan lore that has been provided. Personally, I'd rather see some Evil Eyes and Scorpicores and drop the number of Elves to 1 (probably ditching the Grim Riders to make room for Manticores). But this uses everything that is called out in the Discover Dungeon piece and ties it to the Ashan lore that Ubisoft is so fond of.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 10, 2014 09:56 PM |
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Haven't read all, but I adore your idea of having Faceless behind the lines as battlefield advisors.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 10, 2014 10:08 PM |
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hobo2, you can kick out Giant Spiders for Evil Eyes. Considering Necro's grip over Spider theme, it's very unlikely that we'll have spiders in Dungeon. And who needs them? 
And possibly change Medusa for Manticore. But that'll leave them without elite shooter 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 10, 2014 10:09 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
hobo2, you can kick out Giant Spiders for Evil Eyes. Considering Necro's grip over Spider theme, it's very unlikely that we'll have spiders in Dungeon. And who needs them?
And possibly change Medusa for Manticore. But that'll leave them without elite shooter
I would agree with that. Make the Assassins the Ambushers and Eyes the shooters.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 10, 2014 10:14 PM |
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War-overlord said:
I would agree with that. Make the Assassins the Ambushers and Eyes the shooters.
Yeah. And maybe give Grim Raiders that ability from H5 that allowed them to attack all units on the way to their target.
And plus I disagree with White Dragon. Not the right color tbh.
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Hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 10:32 PM |
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I would personally prefer Beholders to Giant Spiders. But the current "Discover Dungeon" piece mentions Giant Spiders but no Evil Eyes.
White Dragons seems a bit weird to me as well, but the current fluff says:
"Black Dragons bellow in the deepest caverns, while serpents ooze their way through the passages, searching for prey. Most have had their coloration fade to ghostly pallor; the rest long ago turned the colour of shadow."
Now, that could just mean that Hydras come in White and Black flavors, but my reading is that it's supposed to count for both: Dragons and Serpents either have "ghostly pallor" (white scales) or "the colour of shadow" (black scales) in the current Dungeon. The Heroes 3 player in me would rather see Black and Red scaled flavors, but I'm willing to see what the current crop of artists come up with.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 10, 2014 10:38 PM |
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Eyes, or more specifically Lurkers, don't need to be mentioned, they've been in H6 and M&MX and are listed as Iconic Allies in the Compendium. (Just like Minotaurs)
As for the colour, I think that was reflective on the Serpents more then the Dragons and tell about the general tendency of creatures that see no light anyway to not/un develop colours. Old Shadow Dragons were a light shade of grey, I'd go with that.
As for Red Dragons, I got a feeling that they will be related to the Fire God and the Dwarves in the future.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 10, 2014 10:41 PM |
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Hobo2 said:
I would personally prefer Beholders to Giant Spiders. But the current "Discover Dungeon" piece mentions Giant Spiders but no Evil Eyes.
White Dragons seems a bit weird to me as well, but the current fluff says:
"Black Dragons bellow in the deepest caverns, while serpents ooze their way through the passages, searching for prey. Most have had their coloration fade to ghostly pallor; the rest long ago turned the colour of shadow."
Now, that could just mean that Hydras come in White and Black flavors, but my reading is that it's supposed to count for both: Dragons and Serpents either have "ghostly pallor" (white scales) or "the colour of shadow" (black scales) in the current Dungeon. The Heroes 3 player in me would rather see Black and Red scaled flavors, but I'm willing to see what the current crop of artists come up with.
And Evil Eyes were in Dungeon in H6. It also doesn't mention Hydra, but you put it nonetheless, yes?
The dragons are "a bit" magical and they will (for now, at least) be like in H6. Purple and then cosmic thingy. And yes, I love cosmic design, but that's not BD for me.
Well, those artists created this cool Haven, so yeah, I think they can make beautiful Dungeon. Less purple
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 10:47 PM |
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I expect to see Assassin, Black Dragon and Minotaur in all three lineups.
Some things that change from lineup to lineup might be Medusa(Cave Nagas mentioned by Marzhin), Troglodyte, Hydra, Shadow Witch, Faceless, Raptor Riders, Manticores, other type of Dark Elf units like Blood Furies or Chakram Dancers etc.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 10, 2014 10:48 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
I expect to see Assassin, Black Dragon and Minotaur in all three lineups.
Some things that change from lineup to lineup might be Medusa(Cave Nagas mentioned by Marzhin), Troglodyte, Hydra, Shadow Witch, Faceless, Raptor Riders, Manticores, other type of Dark Elf units like Blood Furies or Chakram Dancers etc.
I expect, hope and pray you are right.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 10:52 PM |
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Just saw that I forgot Shadow Lurkers, I am not sure that they will be in all three lineups, might be in two. We will see.
Can this vote end already!? We know that Inferno won't move more than 2% at best, and I really want to see the lineups and their descriptions. 
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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blizz
Known Hero
of temper grace
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posted October 10, 2014 10:53 PM |
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Hobo2, I generally like your line-up. Faceless actually make more sense on that position as I feel their strengths don't lie directly on the battlefield but elsewhere.
I like the idea of spider and would prefer if they were inspired by jumping spiders instead of the classic small head, big back type.
They could have a leap ability that would allow them to pass obstacles, including walls.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 10, 2014 10:55 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
Can this vote end already!? We know that Inferno won't move more than 2% at best, and I really want to see the lineups and their descriptions.
I suppose that would realy mess up the shedule set.
But this poll seems as stuck as the previous faction vote, agreed.
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jackson
Known Hero
Random Spirit Lover
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posted October 11, 2014 08:13 AM |
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I have a request for our lore masters. Can someone please explain to me if Dungeon is still intended to be a matriarchy, or if this idea has been abandoned?
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted October 11, 2014 08:46 AM |
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Am I the only person opposed to the inclusion of Riders? It always struck me as silly for an underground civilization to have cavalry. Just saying, it's only a matter of time before you get clipped by a low-hanging stalactite.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 11, 2014 09:50 AM |
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jackson said:
I have a request for our lore masters. Can someone please explain to me if Dungeon is still intended to be a matriarchy, or if this idea has been abandoned?
To my knowledge, that concept is abandoned.
Dungeon is now a classed society. As shown by this quote from the Discover Dungeon page
Quote:
all Dark Elves are imprinted by Malassa’s mark and constantly forced to hear the constant whispers carried away by the shadows.
There are those who can channel this permanent flow of information, and those who can’t, and this divides the Dark Elf society into two classes.
The Dark Elves that can’t bear the constant whispers imposed by Malassa’s mark are forced to erect a barrier to shield themselves from the rest of the world, lest they turn insane. To help them live with Malassa’s gift, thev burn specific varieties of mushrooms and inhale the vapours. The medicine is like an anaesthetic that shuts their mind away from the ceaseless noise.
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted October 11, 2014 10:53 AM |
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I have a suspicion that white dragons are linked to Ylath.
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Hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 11, 2014 10:59 AM |
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Kimarous said:
Am I the only person opposed to the inclusion of Riders? It always struck me as silly for an underground civilization to have cavalry. Just saying, it's only a matter of time before you get clipped by a low-hanging stalactite.
No, I'm totally with you. I included them in my list because they are called out specifically in the Discover Dungeon article. Not just that they are in the article, but that they are mentioned in the "update" text that isn't in italics. So it's not just holdover fluff, the new team specifically wrote a line about the riders in there. So whatever we think of the concept, we pretty much are going to get Grim Riders as an Elite unit. So when we make wishlists, our task is to make them as cool as possible rather than whining that they exist. Them's the breaks.
As for my decision to pattern the forces on being opposite to Haven, that's how I see things shaking out right now. There are six factions which each have a primary opposite: Stronghold is Might to Academy's Magic, Sylvan is Life to Necropolis' Death, and Haven is Light to Dungeon's Dark. The Roland factions line up much more 1:1 with the Archibald factions than they did in Heroes 2 (which is the last time we got this list of factions).
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 11, 2014 12:04 PM |
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Hobo2's idea of faceles as na support warmachne is great. I 100% approve of this. Love the idea.
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This thread is pages long: 
