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antipaladin
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posted June 09, 2010 09:20 PM |
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the facts still stand...
9 dead activists.
0 dead soldiers.
so if it was the other way around it is okay? do you remmber that all the soliders are wounded,and 2 are sevrealy? our souliders did not start the riot. but they had to defend themselfs.. they ware lynched...
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Geny, the soldiers were boarding vessels carrying f**king school equipment, with live ammo, with, I can only assume judging by their actions, orders to kill resistance.
your right slings and knifes are school equipment ,uh-huh!
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ohforfsake
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Initiate
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posted June 09, 2010 09:26 PM |
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After reading Geny's post I suddenly think it's a horrible act towards those who love you to become a soldier! For shame on you anti!
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 09, 2010 09:45 PM |
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horrible, but unfortunately nesscary one.
and Anti, the soldiers had f**king guns with live ammo. even if that wasn't the case, the crew of the ships would probably have knives in order to survive, and slings could be made relatively easily.
I know you're position on this, Anti, but even you could admit that the operation was a botch job and the Isreali government need to come clean and say "Yeah, we screwed up." that would be the noble thing to do.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 09, 2010 09:52 PM |
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The live ammo was brought on board as a last resort only. Good thing too or all the soldiers would've been killed right there by "peace activists".
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antipaladin
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posted June 09, 2010 09:54 PM |
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bixi the point was that israel said,that it wont happen,why push anyways,and i remind you guns with real ammo,as side arm,paintbull guns and main arm,and yet,wounded soiliders as well. our only screw up is intellegence,if we knew it would turn this way,we had probbly killed more,but atleast not even 1 solider would get hurt.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 09, 2010 09:54 PM |
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Rubber ammo would have done the job. Tear gas would have done the job. not boarding in the way they did, going all commando, would have been an even better job, as it would garuntee no deaths.
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Binabik
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posted June 09, 2010 10:07 PM |
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The live ammo was brought on board as a last resort only
Last resort implies that all other options have been tried. But the Israelis seem to have forgotten the simplest and most effective option, which is not raiding the ship in the first place.
The idea that the IDF was only defending itself is bull****. It's the other way around. The people on the ship were defending themselves. If the people on the ship had killed every Israeli they would have been justified.
I understand that Israel has been screwed over by the United Nations and the international community. I also understand Israel doing whatever it takes to defend itself, and screw what the rest of the world thinks. But to claim self defense in these shootings is just bull****.
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Darkshadow
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posted June 09, 2010 10:09 PM |
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Last resort implies that all other options have been tried. But the Israelis seem to have forgotten the simplest and most effective option, which is not raiding the ship in the first place.
Sinking it sounds alot simplier, really.
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Salamandre
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posted June 09, 2010 10:10 PM |
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or simply target the engines.
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Geny
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posted June 09, 2010 10:11 PM |
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Let me put it another way. Do you honestly believe that Israeli soldiers were given the order to shoot on sight, so that Israel could risk taking enormous amount of heat from the world community? As some said, Israel is walking on thin ice for some time now as far as a big part of the world is concerned, do you really think that the government here knowingly risk it to get worse?
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Binabik
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posted June 09, 2010 10:16 PM |
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What I'm saying is that claiming self defense is bull****. Israel can try to justify the raid any way they want. But it was the people on board the ship who have a legitimate claim to self defense, not the other way around.
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Salamandre
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posted June 09, 2010 10:16 PM |
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@Geny
No, I believe that the continuous impunity Israel enjoys does not deserve his actions and soldiers preparation. If french soldiers (or any other from EU) would have to stop a boat, they would target engines first, and start negotiate. If you can shoot without consequences, you will not think twice before doing so. Have a hard time to understand the logic of last 10-15 posts?
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Geny
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posted June 09, 2010 10:17 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 22:22, 09 Jun 2010.
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The boarding wasn't self defense. The shooting was.
Salamandre,
I'll say to you basically the same thing I said to Wolfsburg - what kind of military training did you undergo or what kind of theoretical naval knowledge do you have? Because if you have much more knowledge than me then I will submit to it. However, if your knowledge on the matter is more or less on the same level as mine, then your speculation on what could have or should have been done don't mean too much.
And btw if you think that the Israeli strategy in general was a such a complete failure, then how do you explain its success in quietly resolving the same situation on the other 5 ships and later on "Rachel Cory"?
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Binabik
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posted June 09, 2010 10:20 PM |
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You seem to act like the people on the ship were the first to attack. Wrong. Israel was the first to attack by boarding the ship. To board the ship was a hostile and aggressive act, and I call that an attack.
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Geny
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posted June 09, 2010 10:24 PM |
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@Binabik
Alright, maybe self-defense isn't the best term. How about self-preservation then? Does that work for you? I think it represents Israel's stand on the matter better than self-defense.
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Binabik
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posted June 09, 2010 10:33 PM |
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Yes, "self preservation" does work better for me and it's far more accurate.
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Geny
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posted June 09, 2010 10:37 PM |
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And they say that people can't agree in OSM.
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Salamandre
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posted June 09, 2010 10:38 PM |
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Geny, I don't get your arguments about naval knowledge or military training. I will try again:
1) You, Anti and Elodin affirm Israel knew terrorists were on board.
2) A terrorist usually does not welcome you with a cup of tea, but has a weapon, ok let's admit it
3) Landing soldiers in the middle of terrorists can have one single issue, death for one side
4) Were there a possibility, that knowing all this, another action could be lead and avoid murder or soldiers being injured? I am sure yes, as stopping engines, negotiate, block the ship etc.
My conclusion is that they screwed it badly. It can happen in a war.
But where I don't get it is that they will never acknowledge this, instead bringing futile arguments, as self-defense. They launched an attack and they knew were they going. And I am sure they knew how it will end. And it seems they did not really care.
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Xerox
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posted June 09, 2010 10:43 PM |
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I just read that Barack Obama promised Israel 400 million $. Take that, Israel! 
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Geny
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posted June 09, 2010 10:44 PM |
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When did I ever say that Israel knew from the start that there were terrorists on board? Here's Joonas' post from the first page and my response to it:
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19 dead on the other side and 10 wounded on your side is a complete disaster from an operation such as that. Either the soldiers were complete rookies(which they weren't) or they didn't expect resistance. I call the latter.
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@Joonas
So do I, and so does the IDF representative who clearly stated they did not expect such aggressive resistance.
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