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baklava
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posted June 19, 2010 03:26 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 15:26, 19 Jun 2010.
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Indeed. You should try to be more like Germany. They only had 2 in over a century.
It's not about quantity, but quality. 
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Shyranis
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posted June 19, 2010 04:27 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 16:42, 19 Jun 2010.
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What you won't see on the leftist media.
Clicky
Hm.. you know this whole topic doesn't fit into right and left.
I mean, plenty of Democrats have condemned the attack, and even want to strip citizenship from the Americans involved.
Pretty extreme response without a thorough investigation done.
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HAMAS controls Gaza. HAMAS does not recognize the right of Isreal to exist ans shells Israel with reockets and mortar rounds and conducts other terrorst attacks. HAMAS violently took over Gaza from FATAH.
Wasn't Hamas democratically elected into Gaza? You know, like Raegan, Eisenhower, Bush and Obama (as some random American examples)?
They still are not exactly the most... appropriate government for the Gaza strip, but they are apparently the only one that resonates with people who are trapped in, cannot export a single thing, cannot leave the region at all and are not allowed a baffling amount of food and construction materials (the economist and mint.com are great reads also if you're into detailed information about economics and trade).
Supposedly Hamas stupidly also only allows 25% of what is sent in through land to actually enter Gaza, who why not have aid go in by sea, but first get checked at an israeli port before setting out to sea with the certified non-weaponized goods? It only makes sense. Of course, arrangements would have to be made with the Israeli government beforehand.
I don't see why everything has to be so one side vs the other though.
All it does is make nobody right.
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Geny
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posted June 19, 2010 05:00 PM |
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Quote:
why not have aid go in by sea, but first get checked at an israeli port before setting out to sea with the certified non-weaponized goods?
With the same reasoning, why not have aid go in by land, since it gets checked at an israeli port anyway?
Oh, and the blockade started after HAMAS was elected as a response to said election.
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Shyranis
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posted June 19, 2010 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
why not have aid go in by sea, but first get checked at an israeli port before setting out to sea with the certified non-weaponized goods?
With the same reasoning, why not have aid go in by land, since it gets checked at an israeli port anyway?
Oh, and the blockade started after HAMAS was elected as a response to said election.
I mean, wouldn't it be more efficient to have it checked in Israel but actually have all of it get utilized when it arrives?
It's not breaking the blockade if it's searched and given approval afterall. Everybody SHOULD be happy but stupid people (politicians) like to play games and tug on other people's heartstrings (because they tend to lack their own).
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Geny
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posted June 19, 2010 05:14 PM |
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Yeah, politicians always know better...
*bursts in laughter*
*stops, thinks about it and bursts in tears*
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antipaladin
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posted June 19, 2010 10:02 PM |
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Wasn't Hamas democratically elected into Gaza? You know, like Raegan, Eisenhower, Bush and Obama (as some random American examples)?
no..... fatah did,but hamas used violance and gang war to kick them out of power from gaza,and while fatah still holds ramala' they can't hold it there hardly.
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Shyranis
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posted June 20, 2010 01:22 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Wasn't Hamas democratically elected into Gaza? You know, like Raegan, Eisenhower, Bush and Obama (as some random American examples)?
no..... fatah did,but hamas used violance and gang war to kick them out of power from gaza,and while fatah still holds ramala' they can't hold it there hardly.
Oh, I was mistaken. Hamas won all Palestine in 2006 democratically.
Hm...
So Fatah is the minority party but it somehow controls he west bank while Hamas controls Gaza.
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angelito
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posted June 20, 2010 09:57 AM |
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Indeed. You should try to be more like Germany. They only had 2 in over a century.
And how have we been seen by all other nations coz of that?
Israel is getting at war every now and then. Just turn around your head too long and woosh...next military action....
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Geny
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posted June 20, 2010 11:33 AM |
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@JollyJoker
You think it's so easy? There has been talks about for as long as I can remember, but it's one of the things both sides just can't agree on with Jerusalem being a MAJOR point of disagreement.
@Angelito
Most (if not all) of the wars were either defensive or responsive. With all due respect to the world I'd rather be painted black than not exist.
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JollyJoker
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posted June 20, 2010 12:56 PM |
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Actually, yes, I think it is so easy.
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Geny
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posted June 20, 2010 01:01 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted June 20, 2010 02:29 PM |
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As Israel you just have to make a serious suggestion (meaning a viable suggestion) for a Palestinensian state. A complete plan Israel would sign immediately.
Then hand that plan over to the UN, handing over the ball to whomever is representing the Palestinensianss politically.
Meaning, you have to demonstrate your willingness to accept a state and make a concrete offer. This hands the ball - and the pressure - over to the other side which has to find a Palestinensian position first.
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Geny
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posted June 20, 2010 04:45 PM |
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I'm not entirely sure that something of the sort hasn't been done before, but since I really don't know I won't lie.
As for putting the pressure on the other side. There's nothing I would like more, but there have been numerous times hen I thought that that's exactly what's going to happen, except no pressure followed. See, making a concrete and full solution is good, but why does it have to be the only way? How about the slower way of Israel makes a step towards Palestinians, Palestinians make a step towards Israel, repeat until a common ground is reached? However for some reason this approach seems to fail miserably: Sharon retreats from Gaza, Israel gets barraged with rockets from Gaza, Netanyahu announces that he is committed to the two state solution under certain terms, Netanyahu is accused by the Palestinians of being an ultra-right tyrant who wants to ged rid of Palestinians. Somehow, every time Israel makes a proposition it seems to result in an attack from the Palestinian side rather than a counter proposition. And it doesn't look like anyone is interested in putting any pressure on them.
In closure, let me quote President Peres:
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If Gaza would turn to peace, she would have peace and there would be no need for flotillas. [...]
We withdrew from Gaza entirely and no Israeli was left in the Gaza Strip. We did not understand then, nor do we understand now, why after evacuating Gaza, the rulers of Gaza started to fire thousands of missiles against civilian life in Israel. For what reason? For what purpose?
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JollyJoker
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posted June 20, 2010 05:15 PM |
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Step by step won't work in certain cases, and this seems to be one of them.
In a situation like this, my opinion is, that the most important point is nailing and proving the fundamental willingness to come to a satisfying solution.
Think Gorbachov. 
One step after the other will lead to years and decades of fruitless talk only.
Seriously, Geny, after all these years and decades of negotiations, can anyone really say what the hell the two sides really want? What Israel is willing to give and what the Palestinensians would be willing to finally accept?
For me - and not only for me - it looks like ISRAEL is simply stalling.
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Geny
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posted June 20, 2010 05:29 PM |
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Maybe. On the other hand, to me it looks like the Palestinians are stalling it because they see that under the international pressure Israel is slowly retreating from its positions and that eventually the Palestinians would get everything they ever wished for on a silver plate. I hate politics.
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Elodin
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posted June 21, 2010 03:08 AM |
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@JJ
Quote:
Let's not fall for Elodin's standard tactics of painting everything black and white and pushing people with a more differentiated opinion is some corner.
It is not unexpected that you have chosen to once again make false statemtnets about me.
However, I certainly do stand by my statement that it was evil of the Arab nations to make plans to destroy Isreal. And quite appropriate for Israel to hand them their butts. The good guys won.
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Israel, on the other hand, isn't doing anything to try and solve the problem in general - it doesn't recognize anything except Israel and their interests, and as long as Israel is backed unconditionally by the US this won't change.
More false statments. Israel has made concession after concession and it has not brought peace. It has not brought peace becasue the evil guys won't recognize Isreal's right to even exist. The loony Jihadists think if they kill a Jew that Allah will give them 72 virgins. It is hard to live at peace with an enemy that thinks he will be eternally rewarded for killing you.
@ Shyranis
Oh, and may I point out that Hitler was democraticly elected too, and had similar aspirations. The destruction of the Jewish people.
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Shyranis
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posted June 21, 2010 06:48 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 06:58, 21 Jun 2010.
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Quote:
@ Shyranis
Oh, and may I point out that Hitler was democraticly elected too, and had similar aspirations. The destruction of the Jewish people.
Hitler had the most modern army in the world at the time and control of a heavily industrialized country with above average population. While Hamas (not saying the are good, rather that they are pathetic in more ways than one) controls a small strip of the shattered nation they were democratically elected to with pathetic numbers in their actual fighting forces, no industry, low population overall and the minority party controls the larger part of their own nation. I must say Bravo Hamas for dropping the ball so hard it didn't even bounce back.
These are two radically different situations. Palestinians are still being kicked off their lands and turned into refugees by the Israeli government approved settlers (I believe the government probably just uses these settlers to put them in harms way to generate more outrage so they can get elected, but what have you. Politicians care little for their own people as long as they get more power.)
I say Israeli government here because not all Israelis are Jewish (I don't call them Jews for short, I find it disrespectful to my Jewish family members. It's like calling a Gypsie a Gyp or Japanese a Jap, Canadian a Nad or American a Rican) and not all Jewish people are Israeli, and not all Israelis support everything the Israeli government does (hence, protests by Israelis, many Jewish, on the side of the flotilla. Free country right?).
Hitler was a bully, picking on a minority religion and branding them as a race, a terrible label that still exists today (which means he partially won, sadly) and brought a terrible evil upon them. He went after his own countrymen and women, then expanded to go after those in each country that fell into his grasp. He also did horrible things to the other minorities he could get away with.
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"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."
-Pastor Martin Niemöller
Two different worlds, one had supreme power over the entire area.
Hamas is a response to a lot of injustices originally brought by the British in the area and continued by a government willing to let a fraction of its people be in harms way intentionally to be killed to gain more power, but originally as an extremist group in opposition to the PLO. I believe it was Ron Paul that mentioned that Hamas was pumped up by the US government and Israeli government originally as a puppet to weaken and discredit Fatah? I'm not saying the Israeli government is all to blame. Of course Hamas is a terrible group that continues to do atrocious acts, but it is at best, a low tech rabble rouser with no real strength trying to hurt a modern giant. And yes, nobody like Hamas, but the unfortunate fact is that a lot of Palistinians (mostly because Fatah was so successfully undermined) see Hamas as their only champion. This is a serious stumbling block to peace.
Two different worlds as I said. Hamas does not control Israel.
I see things from both sides, and I see the Israeli and Palestinian people caught in the middle taking all of the heat for the work of corrupt people in power.
I seem to also recall another nation seeking to wipe its neighbours off the face of the earth and control a continent from sea to shining sea.
Edit: I also find it funny when people call Arabs anti-Semitic... Arabs are also Semites.
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Salamandre
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posted June 21, 2010 07:09 AM |
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It is always ambiguous to play with words, but I always saw jews being mad at the "jew" appellation but no one could show me why. The definition is correct and could find hundred of dictionaries telling it is not at all offensive.
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Shyranis
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posted June 21, 2010 07:14 AM |
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Quote:
It is always ambiguous to play with words, but I always saw jews being mad at the "jew" appellation but no one could show me why. The definition is correct and could find hundred of dictionaries telling it is not at all offensive.
Actually I suppose it's more like calling a Christian a Christ and Muslim a Musli
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Mytical
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posted June 21, 2010 07:24 AM |
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Pardon me while I get everybody here angry, but this has to be said.
It's like 'African-Americans' (to be politically correct) and the term Nigga. They call each other this all the time, but only certain people (and these people ALWAYS with said 'African-Americans' approval) outside of their race get away with it. I don't understand it myself, and have never been offended when called 'red skin' (Ie..I am a Native American).
I have to say that both sides of this conflict are in the wrong, but that is war. Neither side wants to admit any wrong doing. That is why some wars/feuds last a really really long time. Most of the time, they forget who started it or WHY even. Though they make claims..most of the claims come from 'second or third hand' accounts. "My cousin Jed done seen them lousy Hatfields shoot Elly Mae with nary a reason. Us McCoy's done got to go a huntin for all them thar Hatfields". (in example of one of the biggest feuds in American history that nobody can remember who started or why).
The point is history tends to get .. colored .. after awhile. Each side is passed down atrocities that the other side may or may not have done, and if they did might or might not have had provocation from the other side (or just even a simple misunderstanding..but again neither side will admit that).
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