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Shyranis
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posted June 21, 2010 07:27 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 07:28, 21 Jun 2010.
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The point is history tends to get .. colored .. after awhile. Each side is passed down atrocities that the other side may or may not have done, and if they did might or might not have had provocation from the other side (or just even a simple misunderstanding..but again neither side will admit that).
So in summary, people are stupid?
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 21, 2010 07:39 AM |
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Lol, no. However, some do tend to proceed with out all the facts. Example. You come onto a scene where some random stranger kills somebody you love. You might (correctly or not) assume that it was without provocation, and rush to their defense. In recounting this tale, you would be correct in saying that it was without provocation. As that was your observance. This would not make you stupid, but perhaps misinformed. For all you know a minute before you got to the scene this loved one had thrown a brick through this person's window..or tried to kill them, or something similar. Since there is no way of retrieving this information, it is lost to the annuals of history.
Now take this and magnify it by hundreds, thousands of years, and a lot more people. Plus, add the following effect..and experiment :
Get a room of 50 people. Put them in a giant circle. Tell the one to your right (or left, doesn't matter) a simple fact. Let it pass through the circle and return to you. The majority of the time, it will not be even close (or recognizable) to what you told the first person. Again magnify that by hundreds, thousands of years, and a lot more people.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted June 21, 2010 11:29 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 11:31, 21 Jun 2010.
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@ Shyranis
I know of no Jew who considerst the term Jew to be disrespectful. And Jew can refer to either a race or a religion. "Jew" originally refered to a descendant of the tribe of Judah but came to mean any descendant of the tribes of Isreal. You evidently are not familiar with the usage of the word "Jew" in the Bible. "Jewish" is an adjective. You can say "He is a Jew." You can't say "He is a Jewish." Understand? Yes, "Jew" can carry a purely religious connotation but the use of "Jew" in the Bible can also designante race and is often used this way by Jews.
No, the "Palestinians" were not kicked off their land and Islamic terrorism was not born with the "rebirth" of the nation of Israel. The Hebron Massacre was in 1929 and there were other ethnic cleansing and attacks on Jewish settlements during the anti-British revolt of the 30s, exc. Palestinians were not "kicked off" the land—most left, at the instruction of the 7 invading Arab armies, without an army or a Jewish soldier in sight. You will find that when the Jewish state was formed, it’s population was nearly 50-50 Arab-Jewish. The Jews were fine with the arrangement—it was the Arabs who wanted to "kick out" the Jews, and it was the Arab countries who denied their Jewish populations basic human rights & kicked THEM out.
Oh, the fact that HAMAS does not have a modern military makes no difference. They still want to kill Jews. A person is just as dead whether you kill them with "old technology" rockets or rockets with the latests technology.
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I believe the government probably just uses these settlers to put them in harms way to generate more outrage so they can get elected, but what have you. Politicians care little for their own people as long as they get more power.
That is a rather silly idea. The Jews just have the strange belief that they have a right to their land. Imagine that. Oh, and they have purchased any land they reestablish settlements on.
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Hamas is a response to a lot of injustices originally brought by the British in the area and continued by a government willing to let a fraction of its people be in harms way intentionally to be killed to gain more power, but originally as an extremist group in opposition to the PLO.
No, HAMAS and other Islamic jihadists are primarily about trying to spread Isalm through the sword. Those who don't bow to Allah must die or pay "protection money."
They hate the Jewish people and nothing you can do will ever change that. They will never make a permanent peace with Isreal. They have made peace on a temporary basis only to have time to regroup and regain strength to attack again. Then they break the ceasefire. They are liars and murderers.
Yes, HAMAS currently can't fulfil its stated goal of the destruction of Isreal. But if they got their hands on a nuke they would not hesitate to use it against Israel.
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I seem to also recall another nation seeking to wipe its neighbours off the face of the earth and control a continent from sea to shining sea.
If you speak of the United States you seem to be grossly misinformed. There was no "Native American" nation taht spanned America. Also, the Indian tribes warred for land and power amoungst each other before the "evil white man" arrived in America.
And before someone liea about me, I don't agree with the ways the Indians were treated.
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shyranis
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Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2010 02:27 PM |
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@ Elodin
Going in reverse order addressing you here.
1: I never said that white people were evil. And it is good you have clarified that you disagree with the army being sent in to kill indiscriminately to kick people off their lands. Certainly an abuse of Federal power. However, I am not here to smear you or attack you. I am here to talk about the issues and why it is not always just one side right 100% of the time. (Oh BTW, Canada once evicted a large number of French from the east coast of the country. They fled south and founded Liousiana as Acadia. The reason for the word Cajun is because when you say you are Acadian with a french accent it comes out as I am a Cajun. There you go, some of the dirty history of my country for you to observe. As I said, there is not always a Black and White or right and wrong side. But notice how I did not say Natives like they were one nation. I said -their neibours- implying multiple groups.
2: I never said Hamas was any good, rather that they are terrible people that sadly, have won the hearts and minds of their people from what was a legitimate political organization that actually had their interests in mind. This all because of the Palestinian peopleès current helplessness. (sorry, my baby boy hit my keyboard with his palm repeatedly and (è is there instead of apostrophe. I was hard to avoid using so Ièll just the è show up for now. Darning, question marks also show up as É. My quotation marks are messed up too!). Hamas will never be able to fulfil its goal because it does not have support in that function from the international community and it is condemned very often by people and leaders worldwide.
3: (taking a while to type this, my little boy is handing me one of his toy rings and smiling when I thank him and hand them back. What a polite little baby) Anyway, what is so unbelievable about a government using its own citizens blood to encourage further violenceÉ I happens all the time and every country in the world has done it at some point or another. None are innocent.
4: Back to my different worlds point. Hamas, in 30 years has not even come close to a year of Hitlerès wanton slaughter. It is neigh impossible for them to pose a serious threat. As mentioned, all they wind up doing is getting their -butts kicked- and taking a lot of their own civilians they are supposed to represent down with them. The settlers often seem to purchase land without the occupant knowing, which is why the bulldozers often wind up knocking down buildings with people still inside (unwilling to leave their homes that were probably stolen by the crooked middlemen used to buy the land, like if somebody stole your Social Security number and sold your house and the bulldozers came to your house). Ièm not saying this is every case, but why let people move to such a contested area and put themselves in harms way needlessly, and have to waste a large part of your budget just to give them extra military protection they should not needÉ
5: Never said terrorism was born there. Terrorism has been around since humanity existed.
6: Of course you canèt say -He is a Jewish-, that just sounds stupid. Instead you say he is Jewish OR you say he is a Jewish person. But thatès not all. Jew is not a race. Hebrew is the race of people from the ancient kingdoms of Judah and Israel. Two Kingdoms, one people, the Hebrews. Mordern day Jewish are so intermixed there the Hebrew race effectively no longer exists, and if Judah somehow had its own race of non-Hebrew Jewish, that would also effectively no longer exist. After living so long among the other nations of the world, intermarrying and assimilating, they became essentially a melting pot.
The ancient Hebrews once did exist, but theyève been so vastly displaced that they no longer exist. Just as the Mongolians that conquered and settled in Russia intermarried and eventually became so diluted by generation that they were 100% Russian in a few generations. A race can disappear, but a religion can lat forever. Which is why there was Jewish Blacks as well, which may have had a Hebrew ancestor some thirty generations back but does that make them -Jews- as you call them. Itès just a lazy shorthand. To use the word as a race is inaccurate at best. If that is the case, I suppose we probably are all -Jews-.
Jewish people often feel the negative connotation comes more from the fact that for so long the word -Jew- was used as slander and derogatorily in North America, Europe and throughout the rest of the world, a negative word like Fag for Homosexuals (mind you, without calling the person an object to be burned). Remember, until recent times the word -Jew- was used as a term for ripping somebody off. -They just totally ***ed me.- That;s why I try to refrain from using the term so casually. Itès like people used a lazy shortform for Americans derogatorily (mind you, -They just totally Yanked me sounds more like a double entendre-) for generations in an oppressive manner. I imagine youèd be a bit more sensitive to it.
Israel has a right to live, as do all of the people in the country. But letès not mix them up with the people that used to live on the land 30-50 generations ago. The ones that stayed there the whole time as well were displaced and intermixed many times to produce a healthy, semitic mix. That being said as well, Israelès government isnèt all bad. There are only a few points I particularly disagree with as is my right but for the most part I;d say I agree with what it does.
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baklava
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posted June 22, 2010 03:25 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 03:31, 22 Jun 2010.
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About the entire it's offensive to call Jewish people Jews thing...
There's a special round in hell for political correctness fanatics, and I swear that my internet connection broke when I was trying to type that the first time, so I suppose it's probably true.
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Elodin
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posted June 22, 2010 05:16 AM |
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4: Back to my different worlds point. Hamas, in 30 years has not even come close to a year of Hitlerès wanton slaughter. It is neigh impossible for them to pose a serious threat.
Not because they were lacking a will to murder Jews though. If they had more chemical/biological/nuclear weapons they would use them. And in this day and time getting such weapons is not out of the realm of possibility for them, especially if Iran gets nukes.
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6: Of course you canèt say -He is a Jewish-, that just sounds stupid. Instead you say he is Jewish OR you say he is a Jewish person. But thatès not all. Jew is not a race.
Yes, Jews are Hebrews. The nation of Isreal was split in two, into the nations of Judah and Isreal, as you say, during a rebellion against a king. After the Babylonian captivity most of the population of Judah returned to the land of Israel, whereas the other 10 tribes were "lost" in that few of them returned.
The Jews have always kept very good geneological records. If you are born to a Jewish mother you are considered to be a Jew. Yes, there was some intermarriage but for the most part intermarriage was not allowed for much of the history of the Jewish people because of the pagan influence that would bring to the people.
Judaism is the religion. Jew is a race. Sometimes Jew also designates a follower of Judaism. The Jewish people are very much identified with their religion. That is how they have survived as a people though being scattered to the winds several times. They are still the "children of Israel (Jacob.)"
The land of Isreal belongs to the children of Isreal (Jacob). The Jews. That was a nice try on rationalize away their claim to the land of Israel though.
If you insist on not calling them a race, call them a family. The land of Israel is the home of the family of Israel, the Jews.
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friendofgunnar
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posted June 22, 2010 10:27 AM |
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The land of Isreal belongs to the children of Isreal
This is fascism. It doesn't matter what documents you produce to back this claim, this statement was, and will always will be intrinsically evil. Judea/Palestine will always know bloodshed until this foolish idea ceases to exist. It's crushingly ironic that none of the Israelis here cling to such an antiquated barbaric idea.
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antipaladin
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posted June 22, 2010 01:35 PM |
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i think since we won those lands in 67 it and most we gave back it is foolish to give back rest.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted June 22, 2010 01:46 PM |
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It is unusual in 21th century when you win a war to keep land. I understand that Israel calls "concessions" and "generosity" giving land back (how can he, once he built on and living?), and this remembers me jokes about jews which I will not put here, because not fun applied to this. Giving back what you took by force is not "giving". If the arabs would win the war, they would take every inch from Israel for sure and give back nothing. Why should I consider your country and people being wiser and more civilized than them when you act same?
How would USA be seen if they claimed Iraq is now an USA state because they "won"?
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 22, 2010 03:48 PM |
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The concession is not in the fact of giving land, it's in doing so without getting anything in return. And there's a lot of things the Israelis are entitled to just like the Palestinians are entitled to land. Stopping the rockets is one of them, recognizing the of Israel to exist as a Jewish state is another.
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antipaladin
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posted June 23, 2010 09:10 AM |
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we did not start the israel indepdence war,but we won it,suck it.
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angelito
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posted June 23, 2010 09:19 AM |
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we did not start the israel indepdence war,but we won it,suck it.
I heard Poland started the WW2...
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DagothGares
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posted June 23, 2010 09:40 AM |
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we did not start the israel indepdence war,but we won it,suck it.
I heard Poland started the WW2...
Really, they had an army twenty times the size of Germany's?
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Shyranis
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Supreme Hero
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posted June 23, 2010 01:32 PM |
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Not because they were lacking a will to murder Jews though. If they had more chemical/biological/nuclear weapons they would use them. And in this day and time getting such weapons is not out of the realm of possibility for them, especially if Iran gets nukes.
Ironic that the Persians freed the Hebrews from Babylon, huh?
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If you insist on not calling them a race, call them a family. The land of Israel is the home of the family of Israel, the Jews.
Than I suppose we agree to disagree.
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Elodin
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posted June 23, 2010 01:56 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 14:13, 23 Jun 2010.
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Quote:
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The land of Isreal belongs to the children of Isreal
This is fascism. It doesn't matter what documents you produce to back this claim, this statement was, and will always will be intrinsically evil. Judea/Palestine will always know bloodshed until this foolish idea ceases to exist. It's crushingly ironic that none of the Israelis here cling to such an antiquated barbaric idea.
No, it is not evil and facist to say that the Jews have rights too. Sorry.
Oh, and certainly the Jews could all leave the land of Isreal and cowardly Islamic terrorists would still murder them.
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If the arabs would win the war, they would take every inch from Israel for sure and give back nothing.
Not to mention that they would have murdered most of the Jews. Isreal should have kept every inch of the land that they gained in the Six Day War when the Arabs nations were gathred to destroy them. It all belonged to the ancient nation of Isreal anyways.
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Salamandre
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posted June 23, 2010 03:42 PM |
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted June 23, 2010 04:56 PM |
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And all this is back up on biblical sources, the perfect terrorist's manual.
*groans*
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bixie
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posted June 23, 2010 05:27 PM |
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Edited by bixie at 17:27, 23 Jun 2010.
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Oh, and certainly the Jews could all leave the land of Isreal and cowardly Islamic terrorists would still murder them.
why do you think they use such cowardly tactics?
it's because they have nothing but an idea. they are massively overpowered by Isreal, outnumbered, outgunned.
You say you like the idea of a film where the good guys triumph over all the odds, an underdog film. well, the palestinians, in this case, are the ultimate underdog... in fact, they are pretty much waiting for the trigger to be pulled.
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If the arabs would win the war, they would take every inch from Israel for sure and give back nothing.
Not to mention that they would have murdered most of the Jews. Isreal should have kept every inch of the land that they gained in the Six Day War when the Arabs nations were gathred to destroy them. It all belonged to the ancient nation of Isreal anyways.
with that logic, every single one of us is mesopatainian, or babylonian.
to a point made previously, why do you assume all Terrorists are muslims, or cowardly?
I'm about to divulge a little secret to all of you, something that happened to me 4 years ago, in 2005.
My grandfather (on my mothers side) was a business man, back in the early eighties. he was actually a business consultant, and he was visiting a bunch of old friends in october of 1984, down in brighton. his best friend had just had a son, and wanted my grandfather to be at the christening. A fairly well-off man, my grandfather booked into a hotel for the night, the Grand hotel.
I had never met my grandfather, he died 6 years before I was born. When I heard about what happened, I could understand the hatred people felt. My grandfather was a completely innocent bystander, who just happened to be in the same hotel on the same day, and was killed by the explosion. He had done nothing in northern Ireland, done nothing involving the orange army. he was a business consultant, and nothing more.
in 2005, may, me, my brother, my sister, my mum and my dad flew over to Ireland for a formalised meeting with Patrick Magee, the man behind the Bombing. My mother was hysterical, screaming and raging at the man, who sat, perfectly ordinary, respectable even, if very jaded, whilst my mum shrieked that he "Murdered my dad!" when she calmed down, my father asked him why he did it, and Magee answer has always stuck with me.
"It's because we had nothing except C4 and resolve in order to defend ourselves with."
Terrorists are not monsters. they are not bogeymen wanting to topple your country, or wipe out a race of people. they are not genocidal fanatics whose cowardice puts innocent lives on the line. they are people, like you or I, with something to defend, but nothing but their own lives to give.
I see Al-queda as no different from Hamas, the IRA, the Veitcong, the Tamal tigers, or any terrorist group ever. they are people who with an idea, who wish to defend those close to them, and will give their lives willingly to insure their loved one's safely. In another time, this could be seen as heroic, but we do not live in that time, and so we see it as barbaric.
To quote Alan moore (writing in V for Vendetta)
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Anarchy where's two faces, both creator and destroyer. The destroyers topples empires, creating a canvas of clean rubble where creators can build their world. rubble, once acheived, makes further ruins means irrevelant. Away with our explosions, then. Away with our destroyers! they have no place within our better world. But let us raise a toast to all our bombers, all our b@stards, most unlovely and most unforgivable. Let's drink their health, then meet with them, no more.
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Geny
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posted June 23, 2010 05:43 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 17:54, 23 Jun 2010.
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I can admire people who are willing to sacrifice their lives in order to defend their family or ideals. I can only loathe people who have no problem to sacrifice the lives of others to do it.
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OmegaDestroyer
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posted June 24, 2010 09:54 PM |
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