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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 09, 2010 10:47 PM |
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If they were no terrorist then, or Hamas activists (same concept), why launch an armed attack on an humanitarian ship?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 09, 2010 11:00 PM |
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To see if there was anything on it that would be used against Israel if it gets to Gaza. And also to maintain a blockade and not set and precedences for the future. Let me remind you again that this procedure has proven to be successful many times in the past. I can also tell you that I've listened to Israeli news on the matter a few days before the incident and then the officials stated that they expect only passive resistance and non-violent provocation.
And, btw, Israel does admit that something went wrong. It's just isn't clear what exactly and that's why there are internal military investigations going on right now. The most closest thing to an official opinion here right now is that the intelligence screwed up.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 09, 2010 11:01 PM |
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Quote:
The idea that the IDF was only defending itself is bull****. It's the other way around. The people on the ship were defending themselves. If the people on the ship had killed every Israeli they would have been justified.
I understand that Israel has been screwed over by the United Nations and the international community. I also understand Israel doing whatever it takes to defend itself, and screw what the rest of the world thinks. But to claim self defense in these shootings is just bull****.
You seem to be unaware of what a blockade is. And the fact is the blockade was legal, as I quoted the relevant international laws.
No, it is wrong to say the Isrealis were doing the attacking. They peacefuly boarded the ship and did not attack until attacked.
After their soldiers were stabbed and beaten with iron clubs they used paintguns to try to disperse the terrorists. Only after the terrorists shot Isreali soldiers did the Israelis return fire with live rounds.
Saying the terrorits were just defending themselves is laughable. It is utter nonsense to call ships being stopped at a blockade a raid.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 09, 2010 11:25 PM |
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Elodin... how can you peacefully board a ship from helicopters, dropping down, armed with assualt rifles?
please enlighten me on that point.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted June 09, 2010 11:26 PM |
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Quote:
Elodin... how can you peacefully board a ship from helicopters, dropping down, armed with assualt rifles?
please enlighten me on that point.
Simple you threaten people in a wombley voice.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted June 09, 2010 11:27 PM |
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lol
I should have also put, with cover fire.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted June 10, 2010 08:34 AM |
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Quote:
assualt rifles?
your kidding me right? no assult rifels ware used! handguns are secend sidearms,and PAINTBALL GUNS!
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types in obscure english
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 10, 2010 08:47 AM |
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Of course things are not as black and white as one part having the full blame. It seems very unlikely that the Israeli boarded the ship with the intentions or the orders to gun down the passengers. Had that been their intention, they could have achieved that just as well without even boarding.
It just seems a not very well-calculated act. My guess is the soldiers assumed they could get control of the vessel by thread of their arms alone. When things went crazy, probably things went a bit out of control.
So could it have been prevented? Possibly. If someone had considered what the result would be if things went out of control once the soldiers were onboard, probably (hopefully!) they would have chosen another approach (like targeting the engines to stop progress of the ship).
The whole affair was not only stupid but also fatal and very unfortunate for the whole prospect of getting peace in the area. Israel is not the only one to blame, even if I think their course of action was a bit of a blunder - but then, second guessing is always the easiest part. But fact is it has turned out to be a diplomatic disaster for Israel (rightfully or not), and I think they need to realize that they must swallow their pride and give an appology, whether they like it or not.
On a sidenote, the story is kind of similar to (if not in content, then in result) in a current political debate in Denmark regarding our foreign minister choosing to go on vacation rather than participating in an arctic council meeting with US and other nations. She justified this by saying the meeting was unimportant - which is probably true - but her critics gained momentum on saying that she neglected her work duties, but she stubbornly refused to give an appology and say she was wrong. In the end she gave in, but at that time the case had grown to be a major crisis for her, based on something that was in reality only a minor case.
I think Israel needs to realize that the international community is against them on this, so whether they agree or not, the case may not come to a rest before they admit that they made a blunder.
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What will happen now?
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sharong
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 10, 2010 09:10 AM |
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he authorities say the same thing as before the actual capture
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted June 10, 2010 09:49 AM |
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To the "Israel should NOT have killed people",etc side..... What reason and justification do you have for this?
And how come you do not mention that they did also stop 5 other boats, but over at them everything went fine? How come this 1 boat everything went wrong?
And why are Israel to be condemned?
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted June 10, 2010 10:37 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 10:39, 10 Jun 2010.
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Human life is the most important value. No matter for what was it taken, there are always better ways (this case included) for acting before doing that. You can't say anything to this. It's an axiom. That can even be proved, it just does not need to.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 10, 2010 11:04 AM |
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I think, you have to see the general picture.
The general picture is, that - if you accept the unfortunate circumstances of the creation of that state as a fait accompli - Israel does a very good pragmatic job handling the situation they are in. I've applauded them for a lot of things, my favorite example being not to negotiate with airplane hijackers; that one may have been unfortunate for the initial victims of hijacked planes, but had the wished-for effect in the long run.
However, and that's quite a big one, Israel is guilty of making use of terrorist tactis themselves - example: calculated murder of prominent "enemies". Assassinating people presumed guilty of fighting against Israel is going a step too far.
The problem isn't, that Israel isn't able to find a lasting, peaceful and reasonable solution for the Palestinensian problem; the problem is, they are not even trying, at least not very hard. Blockading Gaza is hurting the civilians there - UN says that only 25% of the supply necessary there is allowed by Israel.
So the bottom line is, Israel isn't failing on the propaganda side . it's failing in trying hard for peace on the other side, having no problem to fight with all available means on the other.
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For the terrorist nonsense: terrorists have obviously better things to do than board blockade runners: there's no way out and no target; plus, they have better things to do than attacking Israeli soldiers with clubs and bars.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 10, 2010 05:32 PM |
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True, like hanging children.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 10, 2010 05:53 PM |
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Quote:
The problem isn't, that Israel isn't able to find a lasting, peaceful and reasonable solution for the Palestinensian problem; the problem is, they are not even trying, at least not very hard.
That's like saying the Jews in Germany were not trying very hard to get along with Hitler. If only they had been nicer people Hitler would not have wanted them all dead, huh. It is all the fault of the Joooows that there was no peace with Hitler and no peace with HAMAS.
Israel only has anything to do with Gaza to begin with because Arab nations surrounded Israel to destroy the nation in 1967. Israel kicked their collective butts and gained some strategic land in the process.
The fact is that Isreal has continually made concessions and none of hte concessions have brough peace. No concession will bring peace. Israel could give the land of Israel to the Arabs and HAMAS and other terrorist organizations would still kill Jews.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 10, 2010 09:49 PM |
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Even more fighting. 
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted June 10, 2010 09:55 PM |
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Omegadestroyer: "July 21, 2008 | ISSUE 44•30"
I think the issue is partially solved by now? And I did not read it either, besides the date of the article.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 11, 2010 02:12 PM |
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Yeah, it's a joke. It's from the Onion. It's not real news.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 11, 2010 02:26 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The problem isn't, that Israel isn't able to find a lasting, peaceful and reasonable solution for the Palestinensian problem; the problem is, they are not even trying, at least not very hard.
That's like saying the Jews in Germany were not trying very hard to get along with Hitler. If only they had been nicer people Hitler would not have wanted them all dead, huh. It is all the fault of the Joooows that there was no peace with Hitler and no peace with HAMAS.
No, those two situations are not comparable at all, but I guess there no point in entering a discussion on that subject.
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What will happen now?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted June 11, 2010 03:40 PM |
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted June 11, 2010 04:42 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:46, 11 Jun 2010.
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Here is an interesting related article in the Jerusalem Post.
Clicky
The captain of the Mavi Marmara tried to convince dozens of IHH activists not to engage in violent clashes with the IDF two hours prior to the commando's boarding of the ship, reported Army Radio on Friday.
The Gaza flotilla ship's captain, Mehmet Tubal, said while being investigated in Israel that he and other members of the Mavi Marmara's staff did all they could to prevent the activists from confronting soldiers, even throwing some of the IHH member's metal pipes and chains overboard.
Another senior member of the ship's staff said that 40 IHH activists took control of the Mavi Marmara and dictated the rest of the passengers' movements.
The occurrence of violence aboard the Mavi Marmara may have been predetermined by the IHH 's purchase of the ship along with possible tacit approval from the Turkish government.
"[The] IHH acquired the Mavi Marmara ship from the AKP-run municipality of Istanbul. It is not conceivable that the IHH’s Gaza operation could have been carried out absent high-level government sanction," wrote Svante Cornell, a Swedish security expert who specializes in Eurasia, in an article published on Monday.
A journalist on-board the Mavi Marmara, described as having good links with the heads of the Turkish government and Bulent Yildirim, head of the IHH, had stated, "The flotilla was organized with the support of the Turkish government and Prime Minister Erdogan gave the instructions for it to set sail. That was despite the fact that everyone knew it would never reach its destination," according to the report.
RELATED:
Turkish government backed extremists
Activists should face inquiry
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