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Salamandre
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posted July 16, 2010 02:11 PM |
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Quote:
HAMAS terrorists launch rockets and mortar rounds from civilian population centers
With the density of 4000 people/km2 which Israel impose them it is highly hypocrite to claim that.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2010 02:19 PM |
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I will answer that.
Is it official American policy to hit enemy positions hidden between civilians with bombs and rockets nd artillery, killing the civilians with the attacker?
Is it common rule in th USA that cops hunting a perp fire into the bystanders in order to kill the perp, if the perps flees into them?
Is it in compliance with the American ideals of freedom, protecion of innocent life and so on, to approve of killing a bunch of innocents to hit a ouple of evil guys?
Is that really so? Is the answer to "cowardish hiding between innocents" to kill them all, good and bad, no matter what? Is it really better to kill 10 innocents with one guilty than to let one guilty run free?
I thought that was the mark of terror: Bomb a house to kill the target and who cares about other victims.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 16, 2010 03:01 PM |
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Quote:
Is the answer to "cowardish hiding between innocents" to kill them all, good and bad, no matter what?
No. Which is why it didn't happen already. Whether you believe it or not Israel tries as best it can to reduce the number of civilian casualties to a minimum while still protecting its own citizens. The problem with guerrilla organizations like HAMAS is that they are hard to identify among the civilians and even harder to target without damaging civilians. So, yes, accidents happen. Nobody is proud of them and nobody discards them as something unimportant. However, Israel's main objective is and forever will be the protection of its own citizens and I don't think you can condone it just for that.
As for American policy on civilians... why don't you ask baklava how that policy holds up when they're not on American soil?
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Elodin
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posted July 16, 2010 05:11 PM |
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Quote:
I thought that was the mark of terror: Bomb a house to kill the target and who cares about other victims.
If a terrorist is in a house unless he is kidnapping the other occupants of the house they are most likely not innocent. Mommy in the house is so proud that her 12 year old boy is killing Jews/Americans for Allah and she helps him get supplies and such. Elderly Daddy brags about his boy's latest murders, gives him tips on how to murder better, and has high hopes he will one day be a leader of Murderers for Allah. Of course sometimes there will be unfortunate collateral casualties.
The immoral cowardly terrorists deliberately target civilians for the purpose of killing civilians. They love to kill innocent civilians, especially Jews and Americans.
The Israelis are acting to protect their own civilians. The cowardly Islamic terrorits hide behind women, children, and the elderly to launch their rockets and mortar rounds in their attempt to murder Jewish civilians.
In such a situation, yes, innocent civilians will be killed in Gaza when Isreal knocks out the launchers. That is the fault of the evil cowardly terrorists, not of Israel. Terrorists want dead Jews, particularly dead Jewish citizens. The Isrealis just want to protect their civilians. It is sad that some innocent people in Gaza are killed in counterstrikes against terrorists, but as is said, "war is hell."
Unfortunately wars are not fought on a HOMM battlefield where there are no civilians present and so there will be unavoidable civilian casualties in war.
Every civilian death is the fault of the cowardly terrorists, not of the Israelis.
It is sad that so many bleeding heart liberals cry when a terrorist is killed or when innocents are inadvertantly killed when Israel or the US is fighting terrorists. Many of the same people however seem to be unable to shed tears when there are dead innocent Americans or Jews whom the terrorists deliberatly targeted for the sole reason that they love to kill Americans and Jews.
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted July 16, 2010 07:17 PM |
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Quote:
As for American policy on civilians... why don't you ask baklava how that policy holds up when they're not on American soil?
Heh.
Good times.
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blizzardboy
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posted July 16, 2010 07:50 PM |
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@Geny:
There is a divide between official policy and what actually happens in Israel. There are well-documented cases of IDF abuse and ruthlessness, which contribute to the enraged Palestinian public, and in those cases, rightfully so. Ideally, these cases would be isolated from Israel itself and treated like any other criminal case, but in reality, an Israeli soldier represents their country, so their behavior is inevitably going to reflect on Israel and its reputation. That's not entirely fair, but you shouldn't expect anything else.
---
Also, on a side note, and this is just me being picky, but I really don't like how terrorists are labeled as cowardly because they don't confront a modern military on open terrain. Seriously, who would be stupid enough to ever do that? Of course they use guerrilla tactics.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2010 08:05 PM |
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When means and results of "good" and "evil" are the same, the words cease to have any meaning and good becomes evil and vice versa.
I'm not surprised, though, that Elodin is the "end justifies means" type. I'm not surprised either that he didn't answer any question.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 16, 2010 08:26 PM |
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@Bliz
I can see your point and I guess you're right, but using that logic can't I say that the HAMAS represents the whole Palestinian nation which turns into an unofficial terrorist state?
@JJ
I don't think words like "good" and "evil" can even be used in this situation... or in most situation in today's real world.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2010 08:40 PM |
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I didn't start using the good and evil classification.
Still, that's interesting - you don't think therre is neither good nor evil in the world? Wasn't Nazi-Germany evil?
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 16, 2010 08:54 PM |
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I never said that there's no such thing as good and evil, merely that the terms can hardly be used in the complex situations that fill our world.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2010 09:18 PM |
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Huh? Why not? What's so complex in our world? And what has complexity to do with good and evil?
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blizzardboy
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posted July 16, 2010 10:09 PM |
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Quote:
@Bliz
I can see your point and I guess you're right, but using that logic can't I say that the HAMAS represents the whole Palestinian nation which turns into an unofficial terrorist state?
You could, but you shouldn't 
Despite its puny size and relevance, Israel is probably the single most talked about country in the world other than the United States. Beyond the academic political philosophy surrounding what should or shouldn't be done, it has become a topic of pop culture. Even some random person that averages 5 minutes a month listening to news is probably going to have an opinion about Israel.
This sucks hard for the people living there, because a pin drop of turmoil will ring into the media like a gong on a mountain. 4 dead Palestinians will receive more attention than 40 dead Chinese. Israel or Palestinian factions' mistakes become irrationally amplified and sensationalized. Even in this thread somebody said Turkey could/should rightfully go to war with Israel over what happened with the aid ship; just total bat**** lunacy and zeal, and this carries over into governments and organizations. There are serious movements to boycott various Israeli products, while people openly trade with some of the biggest sacks of scum imaginable in parts of Africa without a second thought.
So my point to all of this is that I think it would be wise if Israel apologized for its action, even if it shouldn't have to. It's stuck with being excessively scrutinized and its not doing itself any favors by insisting its innocence.
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Elodin
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posted July 16, 2010 11:27 PM |
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Quote:
When means and results of "good" and "evil" are the same, the words cease to have any meaning and good becomes evil and vice versa.
I'm not surprised, though, that Elodin is the "end justifies means" type. I'm not surprised either that he didn't answer any question.
No, I'm not an "end justifies the means" kind of guy. I think ending world hunger would be nice. But I don't think stealing from some people and redistributing what they have would be the right thing to do. I also don't think it would be right to murder everyone but me and my family and friends would be an alright solution to ending world hunger either.
Sorry, good and evil exist in the world. And certainly terrorists are evil. Islamic terrorists deliberately kill Jewish civilians simply becasue they are Jews. That is evil.
Israel fights the evil terrorists to protect Isreali citizens. Sometimes civilians in Gaza get caught in the crossfire. That is not evil. That is an unfortunate fact of war. Like I said, real war is not exculsive to areas unpopulated by civilians and civilian casualties are inevitable.
I'm not sure exxactly what question you want answered so repost it.
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Salamandre
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posted July 16, 2010 11:35 PM |
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That is an unfortunate fact of war. Like I said, real war is not exclusive to areas unpopulated by civilians and civilian casualties are inevitable
Agree, there is war, you told it finally.
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Islamic terrorists deliberately kill Jewish civilians simply becasue they are Jews. That is evil.
If there is war, they are not terrorist, but soldiers fighting guerrilla manner. And certainly not cowards or evils, but combatants who kill jews because they are at war with. I am glad you became consistent for once.
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bixie
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posted July 16, 2010 11:43 PM |
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Elodin, I've actually met a terrorist.
page 16 of this thread.
and he have me his reasons for killing a member of my family.
and I empathise with him and understand how he felt.
terrorism is an extreme reaction to an unjust action, it itself is not evil. saying that Hamas are evil is saying that Isreal is evil, as it's Isreal's forceful occupation of the land that palestinians owned for just as long as, if not longer than, the Isrealites, that is causing this whole mess.
quite frankly, it's obvious who is to blame. the F**king europeans who thought "look at how the jews have suffered, so lets go and look at two dusty old books to see where they would best fit, rather than consulting any kind of geographical or political understanding of the region and carve it up willy-nilly, giving all the Isreali's the resources and leaving the rest of the region with nothing."
really, they should have put isreal somewhere else, or at least engaged in a proper diplomatic discourse, rather than the ham-handed aproach we got, with consultation with people of palestine, rather than with two badly written, poorly moraled and hideously graphic books of fiction.
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xerox
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posted July 17, 2010 12:58 AM |
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I strongly believe that there are very very very few people who consider themselves "evil" and find pleasure in killing and destroying stuff without any particular reason.
I believe that most people think that they are doing is the right thing. That their enemies are wrong, and of course their enemies think that they are right and vice versa.
Good and evil is just something humans have made up. Most likely, there is no evil and no good. Those who fight in wars et cetera think that what they are doing is the right thing.
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Azagal
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posted July 17, 2010 01:13 AM |
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...?
I think you shouldn't waste your time writing some fantasy novel man a guy like you should go straight for political satire/ philosophic interpretations of morals in the 21st century .
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xerox
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posted July 17, 2010 01:21 AM |
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Well... Actually I am very interested in politics and would love to participate in some political stuff when I grow older...
Problem is that there is a never a political party I completly agree with. They might have lots of good things but one huge flaw.
I learn all my politics from Brian in Family Guy
And also I was posting that book thread to late... I should have finished a chapter and posted first. I regret doing that so soon and that's why I left the site for some time now because I am to ashamed to read the thread (also I have a vampire novel idea, a young girl who kills people she consider unworthy to live and then she gets raped and her baby eats her from the inside so she tears up her stomach and tries to kill it, trying to stop a new generation of bloodthirsty vampires).
Sorry, I will not go more off-topic here now.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 17, 2010 11:02 AM |
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@JJ
Ok, let's try this... Killing a man is generally perceived as evil. Killing a man in self-defense is not (at least not if your own life was in danger). So different degrees of knowledge can already make the difference between evil and not evil. Now add to that different perspectives, different moral codes, different cultures, different ideologies, etc. If after all that you can look at the world and say what is evil in it and what's good then you're either a saint sent to us by God himself or a madman who thinks he's a saint sent to us by God himself.
@Blizz
Maybe. But then again, due to the amplification you talked about the apology from Israel's government can be blown out into some kind of huge misunderstanding that Israel wants to open up the seas or something like that. Words in politics can sometimes be just as important as guns, if not more.
@Salamandre
Quote:
but combatants who inentionally kill jews civilians because they are at war with.
You forgot those two words that make the combatants either terrorists or war criminals. Take your pick.
@bixie
Understanding and sympathizing is one thing, justifying is another. And I can't see any justification in killing innocent people even to save yourself or your family.
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bixie
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posted July 17, 2010 11:27 AM |
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yes, but on the otherhand, if you think of it that way, then no isreali is an innocent person. essentially, Isreal was a hacked together, missinformed and self-righteous campaign by the european winners of WW2 as a sympathy pass at the jews who had suffered. it could be compared to being given a box of chocolates by a neighbour whose just runover your dog and is now wearing the fur as a pair of underpants.
the Palestinians don't see this as any kind of good thing for Isreal to exist. they see a bunch of european imperialists messing about in their country, telling them to F**k off of land they had have owned for just as long as the Isrealites, and plonking a bunch of people who had far better weapons and more resources than any of them, and getting scolded when told to play nice even if the people are bulldozing their homes. the whole operation is a bloody mess! to the Palestinians, Isreal are the aggressors, the terrorists, the evil ones, as they have marched onto their land with the hope of reclaiming it, gladly killing civilians in the way, and are not called up on it. and I know the comparison is crass, but it sounds to me alot like a bloody blitzkrieg, if anything.
To be brutally honest, both sides are in the wrong. Why Isreal decided to remove palestine off the map I would never know. Why Palestine decided that an angrily worded letter strapped to a rocket would solve their problems I would never know. But I do know this. On both sides innocent people are dying, and that, as you say Geny, is utterly unjustifiable. both sides in this conflict are as bad as each other, as with everything. I seriously doubt there has been a conflict in the history of the world where it has been good verses evil. and considering the treaty of versailles treatment of germany after WW1, I am including that war in it.
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